Comments on Ambassador Watch: Turn back the tide!

Actually, this was a fairly common model of the da...

2007-03-23T03:36:00.000+12:00

Actually, this was a fairly common model of the day, the squeaky clean young singers, who entertained by harmonizing on the classics, smiling all the while for the audience.

There was a dinner theatre down in Huntington Beach called "Tibby's". The main attraction was such a group, who functioned as waiters and waitresses during the dinner hour, then got up on stage and entertained the audience.

There was even a spoof of such people on one of the very early "Saturday Night Live" programs. Ray Charles was the musical guest, and the cast was in the background backing him up on one of his songs, dressed and groomed as what could easily have been recognized as YA. Dan Aykroyd was acting as front man, and suddenly said, "Hi, Mr. Charles! We're the Young Caucasians, and we'd just like to say that we really loved your song, 'What Did I Say?'

We bikers used to group such squeaky clean individuals under the general derisive term "Citizens".

BB

Dennis, you wrote "actually, and tis just my opini...

2007-03-22T19:12:00.000+12:00

Dennis, you wrote
"actually, and tis just my opinion...The YA's were more modeled after Up with People which was very popular then and did not have sinsister undercurrents."

On the Orange Papers site, there's a chapter on "Up with People".
Here's the addy if you'd like to check it out:

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-rroot720.html

~Mel

Anonymous said... To criticize HWA is to attack th...

2007-03-22T12:32:00.000+12:00

Anonymous said...
To criticize HWA is to attack their faith and religion. I hear, especially from the more moderate COG'ers, to "just move on," or "get a life," <<

How sad but true! Words that insult like "Get therapy"

I guess there is something "wrong" with I, the Scribe? I criticized the herbster! Yes there is something wrong with me! I should accept the herbal solution and just "accept" what was/is puked from the pulpit! That is objective thinking, right? Think not!

You may say: "I know, just go away and allow me my fantasy that herbie was Gauuds one true apostle." Or.. "You threaten my belief system! Stop or I will drink kool-aid and then you will know I am serious Sam!!!"

Purge and puke at the thought of lying to oneself in order to AVOID ADMITING that all your time and $$$(life)is wasted on herbie and his stolen religion.......
Kscribe.

"Paul, think about it, you are acting like 'Hitler...

2007-03-22T10:19:00.000+12:00

"Paul, think about it, you are acting like 'Hitler is still alive' just like the PT stated in the 1960s."

Hitler left no legacy besides brain-addled Aryan gangs. The Armstrong is legacy is alive and well. When I was in the COG's, HWA never really figured in to my criticisms, besides the obvious. It was because the Trooth did not come from HWA. The Trooth came from the Bible. But when I discovered that there is no Trooth, HWA began to figure prominently in my criticisms because he is responsible for all of this. He created it all. The theology, the mindest, the lifestyle.

The original point was that any time valid criticism of HWA is made in the context of the current COG situation, I hear, especially from the more moderate COG'ers, to "just move on," or "get a life," as if those who make such criticisms sit at home, weeping with rage over HWA and lashing out like an obsessed maniac. This is not the case. It is valid criticism of a legacy that continues to this day and will continue. A legacy that continues to hold people in bondage. To tell one to "move on" is to deny that there is a problem. I think mostly it is that it makes COG'ers uncomfortable to hear and see the facts, the reality, because their faith in God is linked to the COG theology, which was created by HWA. To criticize HWA is to attack their faith and religion.

well, I was around it, many friends in it, was the...

2007-03-22T07:44:00.000+12:00

well, I was around it, many friends in it, was there when it began and sat through it all. To me, they were just kids of the times, some attractive, some less than perfect, whatever that is. The sang pretty darn well as either YA or the Church chorale. You guys wanna see religious control out of control to this day? Come visit Bob Jones Universtiy downt the street here. Perfect boys, perfect girls, perfect clothes, perfect lenght, ties for the boys (that's what they call them) and long long dresses for the girls. Many lookers, many not so much. Music, drama and perfect religious art coming out of their ears. You can spot a BJU student a mile away and you never met a more judgemental, opinionated and "I'm right and you're of Satan," group on the planet. BJU makes AC, at it's "worst" look absolutely liberal. Faculty must accompany underclassman on dates and it goes on and on. If ever there is place that screws up kids and sets them up for a major mid-life crisis it is just down the street in 2007. It's all relative.

The YA were just another propaganda tool invented ...

2007-03-22T07:29:00.000+12:00

The YA were just another propaganda tool invented by HWA. They were used to project what the "ideal" WCG youth should be like. Did you ever see a YA that was chubby? Or ugly? Or have anything other than a million-dollar smile on his/her face?

The YAs were set up as a standard to which all youth in the church were expected to measure up against.

Anonymous said... "..at least wcg didn't make the ...

2007-03-22T07:23:00.000+12:00

Anonymous said...

"..at least wcg didn't make the women wear top knots like some extreme churches did in those
days."

MY COMMENT: No, but they made damn sure that the women were treated like second-class citizens, had long hair, measured those skirt lengths, and checked them out for no make-up, or make-up, or no make-up, or make-up. Don't you just luv "christianity"? Hey, at least we get the bread(sin)out, and sacrifice Jesus once a year.

Steve K

Did you ever notice how the women selected for the...

2007-03-22T04:46:00.000+12:00

Did you ever notice how the women selected for the Young Ambassadors all had the same exact hair style? Long, layers, soft curls.

The Farrah Fawset look....all the highschool girls had it too.
Look in old year books.

Me thinks some are seeing things that aren't there..what with Nazi talk etc.

I heard Ted compare the YA with the Mormon choir. It was just another way of looking good and wholesome..at least wcg didn't make the women wear top knots like some extreme churches did in those
days.

actually, and tis just my opinion...The YA's were ...

2007-03-22T04:29:00.000+12:00

actually, and tis just my opinion...The YA's were more modeled after Up with People which was very popular then and did not have sinsister undercurrents. It was idealism, not nazism or mind games. Some still give way too much planning ahead credit to WCG. It was the 70's! Hair was hair and there was also no approved or disapproved, save maybe bald, or dikeish hair, which I never saw anyway. GTA did go ballistic over men's hair and used me as a bad example in both Pasadena and Big Sandy in sermons. I guess the hair, not to mention the scarlp and bone was blocking my intellect which was seated in the forehead...Hair evidently could block it, but I think religion blocks it.

Young Ambassadors ... Did you ever notice how the ...

2007-03-22T03:57:00.000+12:00

Young Ambassadors ...

Did you ever notice how the women selected for the Young Ambassadors all had the same exact hair style? Long, layers, soft curls.

I always enjoyed looking for the woman whose hair didn't completely conform to God's approved hairstyle.

My own opinions are somewhat clouded and biased, b...

2007-03-22T03:29:00.000+12:00

My own opinions are somewhat clouded and biased, because I was one of the ones who was dragged along by my parents, and can't for the life of me understand how any clear thinking adult could make a rational or conscious decision to become part of an ACOG.

BB

BB,
It is because we didn't know what we know now.
No internet was available for my research.
I was seeking for answers and at that time WWCG seemed to have what I had started studying on my own.
And I didn't live close to HDQ to check them out personally.

Thankfully, my children have not felt 'dragged' but are now very carefully and cautiously still seeking answers and have not given up on God because of the mistakes of WWCG doctrine.

And we openly discuss issues and share info we may come across that is helpful. And we are trying our best not to 'fall' for false doctrine again, but keeping an open mind to possibilities.
One thing we have agreed upon...there is more to learn and God is greater than HWA taught.

a forum friend from over yonder :)

The fact is, the Mercy Seat may have meant a chair...

2007-03-22T03:27:00.000+12:00

The fact is, the Mercy Seat may have meant a chair figuratively, but there was no literal tiny throne on the top of the Ark. It meant just the lid of the Ark.

It is a wild stretch to believe that the Young Ambassadors were modeled after the Hitler Jugend. They were intended to project the fresh, youthful image of true happiness, as defined by HWA.

The fact is that they were just kids who could sing and dance and had a good appearance. I knew one of the guys in this group and his behavior was reprehensible.

This is an example of managed information, managed by Armstrongite leaders. The Young Ambassadors, like the Young Republicans and the Young Democrats, have a political profile and a propaganda value.

But, then again, this is what the Armstrongite lay membership wanted. They wanted the fantasy of Armstrongism to be true. There are many ex-Armstrongites, some of my relatives and friends included, who are disaffected because Armstrongism was not true, never mind that Christianity is a much better deal. If they can't believe in Armstrongism, they won't believe in anything.

-- Neo

I can now reveal that Big Beeks real name was Gros...

2007-03-22T03:15:00.000+12:00

I can now reveal that Big Beeks real name was Grosse Beekengrubber...

"The Young Ambassadors were modeled after the Hitl...

2007-03-22T01:05:00.000+12:00

"The Young Ambassadors were modeled after the Hitler youth group..."

I always knew there was something creepy about Big Beak

Get therapy

"jorgheinz said... Dennis,you might have an ADVERS...

2007-03-21T23:24:00.000+12:00

"jorgheinz said...
Dennis,you might have an ADVERSARY in Gavin when it comes to receiving tithes and offerings."

"Then behold...shall Marduk, Priest of Solar Entities meet Lord Gavin and the Four Hundred and Fifty Priests of COGDOM in the plains. Tithes shall we call down from heaven upon our heaps and coffers. And whosoever's heaps and coffers be filled, shall be the Priest of Bucks Most Green. Yeah...even the Buckmeister shall he be. ...And those whose heaps and coffers be not filled...shall be torn ansunder by the High Youts of Marduk or chance of Gavin ..yeah by the Young Youts shall the one not favored be torn ansunder.... :P

"The Young Ambassadors were modeled after the Hitl...

2007-03-21T18:22:00.000+12:00

"The Young Ambassadors were modeled after the Hitler youth group..."

You are a knuckle head. DOH.

"I wonder, at Nuremberg, did any Nazis tell the co...

2007-03-21T17:57:00.000+12:00

"I wonder, at Nuremberg, did any Nazis tell the court, in the face of recorded facts, that they should "move on?" To quit beating a dead horse?"

Nuremburg did peter out within a few years. Paul, think about it, you are acting like 'Hitler is still alive' just like the PT stated in the 1960s. Which as about 19 years after the war. Isn't that a time cycle (really just kidding.)

Nuremburg did not go on and on for that long and you have a verdict out on a dead man and a dead church.

"My own opinions are somewhat clouded and biased, ...

2007-03-21T15:38:00.000+12:00

"My own opinions are somewhat clouded and biased, because I was one of the ones who was dragged along by my parents, and can't for the life of me understand how any clear thinking adult could make a rational or conscious decision to become part of an ACOG."

BB

MY COMMENT: I was in the Navy when I started attending "the true church". None of my family was a part of it. I always considered myself rational and clear thinking, but then again, I swallowed everything that Herbie and Teddy taught hook, line, and sinker. I never read anything to counteract what I was reading, nor was I ever a religious type. Anyone who spoke against "us", I considered a dissident, demon-possessed, in a bad attitude, and/or never really had the Spirit of God in the first place. I was either taught this from the pulpit, or I heard it from other "christians" in the church. After all, "we" had the "truth", and all others were deceived. We were keeping the sabbath and the "holydays", which were the sign that we were the true church. It took me a long time to finally wake up completely, although there were red flags that went up through the years. It wasn't until I realized that UCG was going the same way as the old WCG(hierarchical government, tithing, "ordained ministers", ministerial control of the money, sabbath and the Jewish holidays) that I finally decided to split. To make a long story short, I have proven that all of these are false doctrines, and are used by the greedy organizations in order to maintain control of their followers.

Steve K

A UCG member said... "Sigh. I wonder, at Nuremb...

2007-03-21T14:34:00.000+12:00

A UCG member said...

"Sigh. I wonder, at Nuremberg, did any Nazis tell the court...

Sigh, Godwin's law proves true again..."

Unless you have Mein Kampf in your top desk drawer! The Young Ambassadors were modeled after the Hitler youth group. Remember, they were to be the standard for all the youth in the church, just as the young Aryan blond hair and blue eyed youth were the hope and goal of Adolf for the future of his unhappy regime!
In the video "Birthday Bash 05" we see Adolf meeting with the Hitler youth group in the same fashion as Herbie did, also made plain in the same video.
The young ambassadors WERE Herbie's version of the Hitler youth group!

So as you can see, using uncle Adolf as a comparison to the false prophet of your religion (that being Herbie W. Armstrong) is justifiable in every sense.

Happy Trails....
Kscribe.

Dennis,you might have an ADVERSARY in Gavin when i...

2007-03-21T14:30:00.000+12:00

Dennis,you might have an ADVERSARY in Gavin when it comes to receiving tithes and offerings.

Word has it that Gavin, the HIGH PRIEST of ex-COG-DOM, is about to reveal his recent ordination and details of where all that lovely lolly can be sent.Of course,it will be sanctified and used for holy purposes only.

Jorgheinz

2007-03-21T14:28:00.000+12:00

This comment has been removed by the author.

On the numbers thing, there are probably any numbe...

2007-03-21T13:15:00.000+12:00

On the numbers thing, there are probably any number of demographic factors which would influence whether "second generation Christians" would remain in the church.

Several which immediately come to mind would be how violently or mildly the church's child rearing principles were applied in the individual families, whether the local minister was even handed or Hitlerian in the management of the local congregation, the quality of education which the young people were receiving in their local school system, the effects of the practicing of the doctrines on the family, (e.g. tithing causing horrible poverty, or the medical doctrines causing the loss of a family member), the influences of a spouse or his/her family on the second generation Christian, and finally, just basic personality and attitude.

It would be interesting to know if children's ages at the point when the parents joined the cult had an influence on that child leaving. Some kids knew no other way of life from birth. Others were well rooted and possessed a sense of normalcy before their parents took the plunge. Frankly, I've known people in both categories who left.

My own opinions are somewhat clouded and biased, because I was one of the ones who was dragged along by my parents, and can't for the life of me understand how any clear thinking adult could make a rational or conscious decision to become part of an ACOG.

BB

In the area i attended for over 30 years, only ONE...

2007-03-21T12:59:00.000+12:00

In the area i attended for over 30 years, only ONE kid grew up and still is a part of the church, outside of WCG. In WCG now only about thirteen of those kids and young adults are still around attending with any of the splinters. That is very telling and after i made it known to Dave Pack, that HWA did not seem to turn the hearts of the children to their fathers, he really let me have it, all 6'6" of him. He knew i was correct in the numbers, as he should have.
rod 2

"Seat" refers to the location where a ruler or jud...

2007-03-21T08:58:00.000+12:00

"Seat" refers to the location where a ruler or judge dispenses his authority. It originated that way because the judge would literally have a seat in that location where he (or in rare circumstances, she) would sit as he issued his judgments or presided over his court. Therefore it was reasonable to conclude that "mercy seat" was meant literally, not just figuratively. ("See," from Latin sede meaning "seat," as in "episcopal see," has a related origin -- the bishop's cathedra or chair is literally placed in his main church, hence "cathedral.")

Okay, etymology lesson over . . .

I think the question is what does the fact that "G...

2007-03-21T07:36:00.000+12:00

I think the question is what does the fact that "God is on his Throne" have to do with the decisions and actions of a bunch of Armstrongites?

And I am not sure what god they are referring to. As you know they believe in a god that has a body and sits on a throne literally(I guess because he needs a rest).
They have taken the anthropomorphic langauge of the Bible and used it to construct the concept of a humanoid god.

I recall talking to a WCG Pastor one time about the Mercy Seat. He said that it was described in the Old Testament as a throne and is a kind of replica of God's throne.

Then later, I was disillusioned to discover that the Mercy Seat was not a "little model throne" at all but referred to the lid of the Ark. The whole mistaken throne imagery of the Mercy Seat came from the word "seat", which in modern English may mean a chair, hence, the throne idea. But in Elizabethan English "seat" simply means place. It survives in such terms as "county seat" for the location of the headquarters for a county government. Or the expression "the seat of my senses."

This is an example of how someone can take a misunderstanding of language and spin it up to create a mistaken concept. While this is a simple observation, Armstrongism is rife with this kind of error, including, unfortunately and chillingly, the erroneous way in which they identify their god.

Armstrongites would be the first to tell you that they do not worship the same God that Christians do. No words could be more truly spoken.

-- Neo