Comments on Ambassador Watch: Clever Gerry

"Clever Don"Seems Gerry has nothing on Alton Billi...

2008-01-06T16:52:00.000+13:00

"Clever Don"
Seems Gerry has nothing on Alton Billingsley. A very interesting ad is running on the main page of Charlotte Online. http://www.charlotteonline.us

No, God does not call people to follow false proph...

2008-01-06T15:35:00.000+13:00

No, God does not call people to follow false prophets. Therefore, since HWA was a false prophet it follows that God did not call HWA nor did He call people to follow HWA.

Tom, see Herbie the false prophet in all his glory...

2008-01-06T15:03:00.000+13:00

Tom, see Herbie the false prophet in all his glory here

>>>Tom - so you do acknowledge or claim that HWA w...

2008-01-06T03:39:00.000+13:00

>>>Tom - so you do acknowledge or claim that HWA was a prophet. The next step is to establish what kind of prophet he was - one of God or a false one.<<<

We don't need to review 50 years of his writing. All we have to do is ask ourselves, does God call people to follow false prophets? When we find the answer to this, we would know whether HWA was a false prophet or not.

Tom Mahon said,His prophecies about the break down...

2008-01-05T08:59:00.000+13:00

Tom Mahon said,

His prophecies about the break down of the family unit, rampant corruption in politics and government and the breakup of the church are continuing to be fulfilled, as what is laughingly called "civilisation" collapses around us.

Tom - so you do acknowledge or claim that HWA was a prophet. The next step is to establish what kind of prophet he was - one of God or a false one. We have 50 years of his writings to review to prove the case one way or another. After the failure of his long-standing prophecy that the church would flee in 1972 prior to Christ's return in 1975, HWA immediately declared that he was not a prophet - never had been one, that wasn't what God had called him to do.

But it doesn't matter at all does it, because HWA was God's apostle. He (HWA) said so.

Gavin said:"A PDF of last week's Weekly is availab...

2008-01-05T08:50:00.000+13:00

Gavin said:

"A PDF of last week's Weekly is available for those with an iron constitution, a perverse sense of humor, or a world-view somewhat to the right of Attila the Hun."

You know, that's a key isn't it? Our worldview. In WCG and really any Evangelical or Fundamentalist mindset or Meme (mind virus), the world is scewed by the following:

Time is short

Jesus WILL return soon

The Bible is true

We just happen to live in the last days.

Worldnews is all in the Bible especially Matthew 24 and Revelations.

We are not them.

God loves his church and will protect it.

When we do our part, then the work will be finished and Jesus, who doesn't know what God has in mind, will return. (Can the Deity be considered omnicient when # 2 doesn't know what #1 has in mind?)

Lay up your treasure in heaven.

It is Satan's world and he is angry at time being short.

blah blah....

You know, humans can blow the planet all to hell and still Jesus will forget to return.

There are other mindsets on the planet to partake in.

God doesn't need money to speak clearly

Humans must take responsibility

We are hairless apes with consciousness

We are spirits experiencing reality in a limited way by means of a mere five sensed carbon based wetsuit.

It's all good and all works out.

The goal in life is to be authentic and yourself.

Evolution is incredible and we have come via Australipithecines-Homo Erectus-Homo Ergaster-Homo Neanderthalis-Homo Sapien.

Israel is not more significant a country or the Jews a people than those from Uganda or Uzbeckistan.

We are all a small conscious part of the same one benevolent thing.

It's all good and all works out nicely.

Karma rules and no one looses.

There is no hell and no eternal punishment at the hands of a petty god. Everyone wins in time.

Ben and Jerry's Icecream is incredibly delicious....

Just a thought

Happy Sabbath and mindset.

Saint Tom explains on behalf of herbie: "I don't a...

2008-01-05T02:46:00.000+13:00

Saint Tom explains on behalf of herbie: "I don't agree. HWA's timing of some prophecies was obviously incorrect, especially his 1972 to 1975 time period, but his broad outline of the end time prophecies are being fulfilled as I write."

Tom, I don't agree. There hasn't been peace in the middle east for any length of time since time began, nor do I imagine as long as religion dominates that region that there ever will be, therefore it doesn't take a profit to predict problems there. Same thing with the family situation. Society's pendulum swings both directions and the nuclear family will grow apart and then back together as it always has.

Tom, you also seem to conveniently forget the very many prophecies that herbie made with regard to *specific* countries and actual named persons that failed miserably. You can beat around the bush all you want but the basic tenant of those "holding fast" to armstrongism just keep moving the dates every 5-10 years when actual events fail to meet their predictions. That isn't faith, nor religion. It is dishonest at best and it harms people! Whether or not you can admit that it up to you.

Here is a prediction for you: In the unlikely event that Gavin's blog is still here in 10-15 years, I predict that the tribulation will not have come, the Boche will still not have enslaved Americans, and Muslims will still be trying to kill all the Jews and killing other innocent people around the world...and we will all be 10-15 years older.

I may have seen part of the documentary that highl...

2008-01-05T00:51:00.000+13:00

I may have seen part of the documentary that highlighted House of Yaweh. We were travelling, it was late, wife asleep in the adjacent room, so the volume was down and I only gave it part of my attention.

I remember a long interview and a walk around the disheveled home, or former home, of a former member of the group. There was also an unsuccessful intervention by a family concerned about one of their own who had become immersed in the group. She seemed to appreciate their concern but held fast to what she had learned in HOY.

Their leader lives well, and is especially fond of Cadillacs -- so an unusually large percentage of the members also drive Cadillacs.

That's about all I remember. The show piqued my curiosity at first, but failed to explain, at least to my satisfaction, why anyone would join such a group.

RobertHere's a conservative critique of Bivin, ple...

2008-01-05T00:46:00.000+13:00

Robert

Here's a conservative critique of Bivin, plenty of reasons!
link

Charlie said...Saint Tom correctly saith: "The wor...

2008-01-05T00:43:00.000+13:00

Charlie said...

Saint Tom correctly saith: "The word "likely" does not denote proof. In fact, it doesn't even indicate probability. it posits a supposition, without any supporting evidence."

Charlie>>>Tom, I submit to you that this is exactly what herbie did for far too many years. He posited many a "prophecy", with no supporting evidence and voila, nothing came to pass with the exception of the fleecing of the flock.<<<

I don't agree. HWA's timing of some prophecies was obviously incorrect, especially his 1972 to 1975 time period, but his broad outline of the end time prophecies are being fulfilled as I write.

For example, his booklet, The Middle East In Prophecy, is a seminal work, which outlines the sweep of history from Roman times to the present day and beyond. Also, his prophecies about the breaking of American and UK power are currently being fulfilled, as both the US and UK try to save face, while retreating from the quagmire in Iraq. Or should that be a debacle?

His prophecies about the break down of the family unit, rampant corruption in politics and government and the breakup of the church are continuing to be fulfilled, as what is laughingly called "civilisation" collapses around us.

There are also claims made by the Aramaic Peshitta...

2008-01-05T00:09:00.000+13:00

There are also claims made by the Aramaic Peshitta website suggesting the original scrolls were written in Aramaic (www.aramaicpeshitta.com).

See their article, Was the New Testament Really Written in Greek?

www.aramaicpeshitta.com/WastheNewTestamentReallyWritteninGreek1c.pdf

Now if you think it is wrong, tell me the reasons. Let us at least prove all things!

>>>Sorry but this is nonsense... Testament." Gavin...

2008-01-04T23:07:00.000+13:00

>>>Sorry but this is nonsense... Testament."

Gavin,

The idea that the NT was translated from Hebrew into Greek is an idea which is supported by the Jerusalem Perspective (www.jerusalemperspective.com).

They write about the book, Understanding the Difficult Words of Jesus by David Bivin:

"Why are some of the sayings of Jesus found in the Synoptic Gospels so difficult to understand. Bivin and Blizzard suggest that it is because the original gospel that formed the basis for the Synoptic Gospels was first communicated, not in Greek, but in the Hebrew Language. This means we are reading an English translation of a text that is itself a translation. Many of Jesus' sayings contain Hebrew idioms that are meaningless in either Greek or English. When the Greek text is translated back into Hebrew, Hebrew idioms appear that illuminate the teaching. A 47-page appendix discusses 12 passages that are examples of the scriptures that are commonly misinterpreted due to a lack of understanding Hebrew idioms."

To order a copy of the book go to www.shop.jerusalemperspective.com

2008-01-04T22:01:00.000+13:00

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While catching up on an email account I hadn't cau...

2008-01-04T19:24:00.000+13:00

While catching up on an email account I hadn't caught up with lately, I see that the Arts & Entertainment channel had a program on or about 12/02/07, entitled Mind Control, which focused on former WCGer, Buffalo Bill Hawkins-turned-Yisrayl Hawkins, head of the cult known as House of Yahweh, out of Texas.

I looked at A&E's site, and only see the program as for sale on DVD now.

Interesting that they picked a group led by a former WCGer to highlight, while focusing on the subject of cult mind control.

Anyone catch that show? If so, please comment if you can.

DennisDiehl said... Nothing really is a simple ...

2008-01-04T18:21:00.000+13:00

DennisDiehl said...

Nothing really is a simple as we all have been taught by the literalist church.

I take it you disagree with the idea that a proof of God's True church is the fact that it has A) God in the name, and B) The word Church in the name?

Was that a lame proof or what? HWA had to have had a really low opinion of our IQs.

OK, one more thing...Here is some additional detai...

2008-01-04T18:14:00.000+13:00

OK, one more thing...

Here is some additional detail in P46

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Papyrus_46

There is also a photo of the papyrus.

"Papyrus 46 (also referred to as simply P46) is one of the oldest New Testament manuscripts known to exist, with its 'most probable [creation] date' between 175-225[1]. It was part of the Chester Beatty Papyri. According to the website Bible Research, it contains (in order) "the last eight chapters of Romans; all of Hebrews; virtually all of 1–2 Corinthians; all of Ephesians, Galatians, Philippians, Colossians; and two chapters of 1 Thessalonians. All of the leaves have lost some lines at the bottom through deterioration."

Here is a very good introduction to New Testament ...

2008-01-04T18:05:00.000+13:00

Here is a very good introduction to New Testament textual criticism; titled appropriately "An Introduction to New Testament Textual Criticism"

http://www.skypoint.com/~waltzmn/intro.html#MSList

It provides a listing of the major NT manuscripts. For example here is their description of P46

"P46. Chester Beatty Papyrus II. Papyrus of the Pauline Epistles (with assorted lacunae; missing the beginning of Romans and all of 2 Thessalonians; includes Hebrews, but probably never contained the Pastoral Epistles). Usually dated c. 200, although much earlier dates have been suggested. The text is rather free, especially in Romans, and contains very many singular readings. It stands closer to B than any other manuscript, however, and the two probably form their own text-type or sub-text-type."

enjoy...

According to Hugh Schonfield, of Passover Plot fam...

2008-01-04T17:07:00.000+13:00

According to Hugh Schonfield, of Passover Plot fame and citing several credible witnesses, there was a fifth gospel, now lost, but fragments still exist. This is not the Shem Tov Hebrew Matthew but another publication, the "Gospel of the Hebrews," related primarily to Matthew, but shorter, and also to Luke. Jerome says he made Greek and Latin versions of it, which would suggest that its original might have been in Hebrew. Some few think it might be the Hebrew or Aramaic text mentioned by Papias, according to Eusebius. Jerome also references it in the margins of his Latin Matthew.

2008-01-04T16:49:00.000+13:00

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Robert said:>>>You are right in your assertion as ...

2008-01-04T14:56:00.000+13:00

Robert said:

>>>You are right in your assertion as the original NT was likely to be written either in Hebrew or Aramaic. They were later translated into Greek.<<<

Sorry but this is nonsense. For a start, there is no "original New Testament." The NT is a fourth century collection of earlier documents, and the textual evidence indicates that all of them were written in Greek. The only contender for a Hebrew original I'm aware of was Matthew, but that idea has been thoroughly debunked. The NT books are a product of diaspora Judaism, which is why Old Testament citations are overwhelmingly from the Greek LXX, not the Hebrew.

Dear Robert and Anonymous, it appears I'm in your ...

2008-01-04T14:49:00.000+13:00

Dear Robert and Anonymous, it appears I'm in your debt, what with all the references you've provided. I intend to read them all. Thank you!

Saint Tom correctly saith: "The word "likely" does...

2008-01-04T13:37:00.000+13:00

Saint Tom correctly saith: "The word "likely" does not denote proof. In fact, it doesn't even indicate probability. it posits a supposition, without any supporting evidence."

Tom, I submit to you that this is exactly what herbie did for far too many years. He posited many a "prophecy", with no supporting evidence and voila, nothing came to pass with the exception of the fleecing of the flock.

Here is a primer on the actual "hard copy" that we...

2008-01-04T12:24:00.000+13:00

Here is a primer on the actual "hard copy" that we have of the NT. These are the only actual papyri that we have! This is it. Generally they contain only bits-and-peaces of the text of the New Testament.

A complete NT is available only after 325 AD, after the Council of Nicea.

The earliest actual document we have is dated by scholars at about 200 AD. We have NOTHING prior to 200 AD.

The details can be found on

http://scriptorium.lib.duke.edu/papyrus/texts/manuscripts.html

(AD)...200...250...........300....350...450

Matt..........P45............B......Sin.....A
Mark..........P45............B......Sin.....A
Luke..........P4,P45,P75...B......Sin.....A
John...P66...P45,P75.......B......Sin.....A
Acts...........P45............B......Sin.....A
Rm-Hb..P46..................B......Sin.....A
James........................P72,B..Sin.....A
Rev............P47...................Sin.....A

My point, there is no hard copy of any epistles prior to the beginning of the 3rd century. There is NO PHYSICAL EVIDENCE.

We have to "take the word" of the good church fathers that "Paul" really said those things.

Robert said:>>>You are right in your assertion as ...

2008-01-04T11:05:00.000+13:00

Robert said:

>>>You are right in your assertion as the original NT was likely to be written either in Hebrew or Aramaic. They were later translated into Greek.<<<

The word "likely" does not denote proof. In fact, it doesn't even indicate probability. it posits a supposition, without any supporting evidence.

Smilinjacksprat wrote"Paul fully supported the Jew...

2008-01-04T07:31:00.000+13:00

Smilinjacksprat wrote

"Paul fully supported the Jewish obligation to live within the whole Torah, while urging Gentiles to ignore those who would make them Jews. Jewishness is not a superior lifestyle; it is a Jewish lifestyle, a unique culture required of the family of Israel by virtue of their own free acceptance of the covenant proffered to them by God at Sinai."

What we have in Paul's epistles is a cleansing of the original works by later Catholic editors who made them more acceptable to Orthodoxy.

http://depts.drew.edu/jhc/detering.html

"In a further chapter Van Manen finally justifies his theses and in the end develops his theories about the probable origin of the Epistles as well as their age. He transplants them in their totality into the first half of the second century and seeks their origin in a Pauline School, in Paulinism, fencing the latter off from Marcionism as a one-sided further development of Paulinism. According to Van Manen, Paulinism developed alongside and in reaction/imitation to Petrinism until it flowed together with the latter into Catholicism. The historical Paul himself was, according to Van Manen, probably neither the initiator of the school of thought named for him, nor the author of epistles, but only performed the duty of "patron" of that school. Paulinism only used his name to legitimate itself, and wrote under his name "Epistles," i.e., various didactic writings formed into an entity in which it explained its views and defended them against Judaism. After an initial period of skepticism "Paul" was also accepted by the Catholics (whose position lay somewhere between Jewish Christians and Paulinists). His writings were finally (after being essentially rewritten) recognized as authoritative and canonized."