Comments on Ambassador Watch: Clarion Call for Poverty

I have the last 57 minutes of the DP sermon. Where...

2007-12-19T06:32:00.000+13:00

I have the last 57 minutes of the DP sermon. Where he ask his people,no I take that back, He Tells his people to send him, ALL their money and more.
If you want to hear it. I will send it.
I am at slangdon50@yahoo.com, no I take th

Becker ... Mrs. Pack died.

2007-12-15T14:32:00.000+13:00

Becker ... Mrs. Pack died.

I have to comment on Pack's latest "mugging of the...

2007-12-15T10:59:00.000+13:00

I have to comment on Pack's latest "mugging of the brethren" (a guilt trip and false promises being the weapons). The time has come for all RCG members to exit Pack's cult.

A bit dated, but relevant background. This from a ...

2007-12-13T15:27:00.000+13:00

A bit dated, but relevant background. This from a Thiel website entry dated 11/2/01 (http://members.aol.com/drthiel/ongnews.htm). How much has changed from then to now? What is Pack doing with third tithe funds currently--and is there honest, truthful, accurate disclosure to his members?

---- QUOTE ----

About a year ago (9/6/00), Ted Munson reported the following (which I copied from Bill Sheppard's website), "As the Treasurer of the Church for the past three months now, I can see a clear and consistent pattern of overspending, wastefulness and worst of all, a misuse of all three categories of directed tithe funds. Anybody who is a contributor to the Restored Church of God should be concerned with that statement. What do I mean? Let me explain. Directed funds are funds where you, the contributor, specify exactly how they should be spent as a condition of RCG accepting the funds. Example: Third tithe. Everyone in the Church knows it is to go to the widows and the orphans and other needy people as their legitimate needs arise. This is a long standing doctrine of the Church. However, very little third tithe contributed to RCG is actually spent in the manner which God says it should be. Mr. Pack has even instructed me to deny people who need third tithe, and instead use the third tithe to help meet payroll, rent, attorney salary, and other expenses unrelated to third tithe. I cannot in good conscience comply with his demands any longer. Mr. Pack has repeatedly instructed me to turn down those requesting second tithe assistance while also repeatedly instructing me to deposit all excess second tithe, and tithe of second tithe into our main checking account, (which is the first tithe account) to cover our shortfalls due to overspending. I have refused to do as he demands, explaining to him that my conscience tells me not to do as he demands. Of course his demands are verbal and not in writing. When I told him of my crisis of conscience, he became extremely angry and verbally abusive of me. He even made many untrue and unkind remarks to me about my wife, and even attacked Mr. Armstrong’s integrity. He claimed Mr. Armstrong misused third tithe and festival tithes in such a way that I “wouldn’t even believe it.” That saddened me. I had hoped he would have said: “Tom, you passed the test, I really didn’t expect you to do what I was telling you to do, I was just testing you.” But he didn’t. He told me a condition of my continued employment was to pay the bills with excess second tithe, and tithe of a tithe and third tithe. I won’t steal God’s tithe in my personal life and I won’t steal God’s tithes from the needy. Mr. Pack should have known I was honest when he hired me... RCG’s policy: If you don’t tithe you’re out. Over half of the mailing list was removed for one reason and one reason only, they didn’t give as much as Mr. Pack wanted them to. Forget about “freely you received, freely give.” One of the biggest events of the day for Mr. Pack is when the mail comes in. He opens the mail personally in order to count every last cent that comes in, and to see who has suddenly stopped tithing. If someone hasn’t given money in a while, he usually won’t counsel with them. What he does is to remove them from the mailing list. This is true of prospective members, too. Everything seems to revolve around money for Mr. Pack. If you knew how much he spent per month on rent and for his personal attorney, or how huge his salary is, then you would know why he is so concerned with the tithes, and why he is so willing to misuse the other tithes as well as first tithe. "

---- END QUOTE ----

Did not Peter tell Ananias and Sapphira that the m...

2007-12-13T12:55:00.000+13:00

Did not Peter tell Ananias and Sapphira that the money from the sale of the land was theirs?

To do what they liked with.

Most people forget that.Ananias and Sapphira were not sprung for keeping their money, but for lying and dishonesty.

These religious hicks,once again, choose to overlook the Scripture that says that God will meet their financial needs, Providing they are following him.And these words from Christ himself.Paul, himself seemed to forget these words at times.

Seamus

One would be safer playing a pump and dump penny s...

2007-12-11T15:11:00.000+13:00

One would be safer playing a pump and dump penny stock then giving bad old Dave a nickel! Either way, there will be no return. Not even eternal life!

Can you really get a smile and a pat on the back from God for giving him (Dave/God) money? If that is the case then God is corrupt and likewise, his children! Go ahead, bribe those keys to the kingdom right out of Dave's/Gods hands! Buy eternal life!

Honestly, I must say that it would be better to be dead than in that or other mind control cults! The alternative is to drink yourself to death. Go out drunk and in a blaze of glory! Just don't crash your car into mine!

Agreed! So how about it Bob? We know you read thi...

2007-12-11T13:37:00.000+13:00

Agreed! So how about it Bob? We know you read this blog, so please give a bit more to lend more credibility to this unbelievable occurrence.

Since Bob Thiel tends to use the antics and teachi...

2007-12-11T11:07:00.000+13:00

Since Bob Thiel tends to use the antics and teachings of the other COG's to give him a chance to show how correct his thinking always is, I would like to see him be more forthcoming on the orign of this tape or sermon.

It's not that I think he is not being forthright, but he needs to give more info on the origins of this crazy rant by Dave.

If this quote, or near quote, is legitimate, then ...

2007-12-11T09:38:00.000+13:00

If this quote, or near quote, is legitimate, then David Pack is seriously unhinged, quite possibly dangerous. He is walking on the line between reality and delusion. He worries me. God help the people in his presence day after day.

Pack is even better than the Nigerians at scamming...

2007-12-11T09:17:00.000+13:00

Pack is even better than the Nigerians at scamming.

Pack appears to have gone bananas, and the best in...

2007-12-11T04:54:00.000+13:00

Pack appears to have gone bananas, and the best interpretation is he is about to implode financially and/or becoming mentally deranged. By pressuring people to sell their assets NOW, as an ultimatum, this means those who don't are on the "you are against me" side of Pack's spectrum. Best guess as to what will happen: a whole one or two larger-than-average offerings which keeps Pack's bills paid for another month or so, on the upside: the downside is some more people see the man is a raving lunatic and leave. But Pack probably is used to people leaving, since that happens anyway; his business model is probably get new people in and churn 'em for cash while he's got 'em.
Definitely someone get this story to the Akron Beacon Journal NOW. They will know how to verify its accuracy first of all, and then do something about it second. This is the #1 thing anyone on the inside who cares can do.

This sounds as if it could actually be from a Dave...

2007-12-11T04:23:00.000+13:00

This sounds as if it could actually be from a Dave Pack sermon. I don't think Bob Thiel would just make that all up.

Dave Pack must be running out of cash and feeling the economic pinch. It is tough running a family church business.... especially with a son and his family needing to live off the back of the tithe payers, a daughter and her family needing to live off the church contributors, a son in law and his brother living off RCG contributors, and ole Dave himself having to do without so much scotch..

A family run church enterprise at its worst. Because anyone foolish enough to give to Pack's "church" to support him and his extended family will NEVER see any of that money again. But Pack and his fimily will sure collect their pay checks!! Thanks to the dumb sheep!!

The bills will come due for the second mortgage they took out on Dave's behalf, and Dave's empty promises will be just that.... empty. Then the gullible will find out if god owns the property or the mortgage originator.

His assurance that they will flee to the place of safety before the bills come due is laughable at best, frightening at the worst. Sounds like someone planning to take the money and run.

Dave is proving yet again that his greed and lack of ethics knows no limits!!! And don't think his gratitude will last all that long once you have to start repaying your loans with no money to do so. He will not help you. If you request assistance there will be an excuse, or a demand to turn your whole estate over to his "Church".

Dave and and other church of god fraudsters are parasites that drain their victims and then cast them aside to find new hosts.

I certainly hope no one actually goes through with the financial suicide that he is pressuring his followers into commiting. Instead, let's hope this awakens more of them into what a complete and utter charlatan he is.

Thomas Munson

Hi all!“Well, as I mentioned to my friends at WCG ...

2007-12-10T21:27:00.000+13:00

Hi all!

“Well, as I mentioned to my friends at WCG Alumni Forum, where FYI opened a post on this topic, this latest action by David Pack most definitely places him a notch or two above Gerald Flurry on our Kool-Aid betting pool.”

Mark Lax responds: The makers of Kool-Aid would like to remind everyone that the beverage used at Jonestown was Flavor-Aid, not Kool-Aid, which with or without sugar, has never been used in any mass executions and/or mass suicides.

“BTW, his mental condition might have been more understandable if he were approaching 70 as suggested above. Reality is, he's approaching 60. The man is a baby boomer.”

Mark Lax responds: Pushing 70 was a best guess. He says he was at A/C as an undergrad in 1972, which at minimum makes him 57. Another work of his stated that he had already picked up a BA at another college. I think the letters cited previously on this thread have his age at 30 or so in 1978, which puts him at 59. Given that there are posters on the forum who actually have dealt with Pack in the fleshy bits, I will defer to them. In any case, I stand corrected.

“Yes, reversed speech works.”

Mark Lax responds: Sigh. Does not. Does not. Does not. Sigh.

" It sounds to me like he is excessively trusting in money to do the work. While money is needed to do the work, I feel that this is excessively and irresponsible for David Pack to call for people to liquidate their assets at this time."

Mark Lax responds: Until I hear the entire sermon, I am going to reserve judgment. Dr. Bob is about the opposite of a credible source on any topic, including his own credentials. I find it interesting that both he and Pack are tied to the vitamin industry—an utter jungle of frauds if ever there was one. If this is all Dave is doing during the sermon, then I would have to conclude that, yes, indeed the Packster has gone off the deep end. BUT, it should be noted that Pack often goes into a form of word jazz during his sermons, especially when he is struggling with a transition from one topic to another. He does this in his writing quite a bit, also. As opposed to saying, “On another subject” or “Of tangential interest” or “Now, a word from our sponsor” he will just go off for about three minutes (six pages) on… whatever, really. The time is short, give me your money now thing is more or less a staple of his meanderings. Perhaps poor Dr. Bob is just not used to this type of presentation. Wait! Dr. Bob is an LCG follower, wherein the end of the world is all they do. Oh. Ok. Maybe, just maybe, it’s Dr. Bob that is insane—and perhaps just a little jealous?

Kscribe:A customer of mine was into Reverse Speech...

2007-12-10T21:00:00.000+13:00

Kscribe:

A customer of mine was into Reverse Speech, and was formally licensed by Oates to teach in the States. I've got a copy of the Reverse Speech Metaphor Dictionary.

The key to doing a reverse is to slow the reverse waveform (Goldwave is a good software program for this) down to 75-80% of normal. RS is encoded backwards at 120% of normal speaking rate. Also much of the speech is in human archetype metaphors, which are pretty common to all English speakers, along with a few personal metaphors.

Its an amazing discovery, that the true intent of a person's speech is encoded even if they tell a lie. Politicians are hysterical to reverse speech analyze.

Its a very real phenomenon, and once you understand it, its only natural we should find reversals in music that contains words being sung.

anonymous said....If I keep posting my unpublished...

2007-12-10T20:49:00.000+13:00

anonymous said....

If I keep posting my unpublished essay on this website, it will soon be published!

Richard

Sometimes just be able to tell your story is cathartic in itself.

In the WCG we weren't allowed our own story, we had to recite the story of Herbert, Ted, Rod, and Herman. And if we forgot any of that, Waterhouse was around once a year to remind us.

I've got book coming out myself, but still haven't decided whether to approach it as historical fiction, or hysterical non-fiction. Somewhere between is probably the right course.

I'm more interested in getting a deeper point across than naming hundreds of fools who would be king.

Oh, I know: Let the dead bury their dead.Except, e...

2007-12-10T17:31:00.000+13:00

Oh, I know: Let the dead bury their dead.

Except, except, they're not dead yet.

But if no one helps, they will be.

Then the dead can bury the dead.

Thanks to the Pharisee who refuses to help... ever.

Let's see now... Some time this weekend, NBC News ...

2007-12-10T17:27:00.000+13:00

Let's see now... Some time this weekend, NBC News had a segment on the Canadian millionaire who built Canada Town in the US for Hurricane Katrina victims, on over 800 acres with three bedroom homes and farm land thrown in form slightly over $800 million dollars. People live there if they follow rules like hold a job, contribute an hour a week to community service, participate on the town council. Victims of the storm have a home now -- a nice home and they stay there for free for the next five years.

Right at this moment ABC Home Makeover Extreme Edition is on. This week, Ty Pennington is building a new house for a couple with two boys, one of whom is severely disabled -- out of the goodness of heart.

And a few miles south of here, people are opening their homes and hearts to help the victims of the flooding over the past week or two. Again, unselfish, working hard to help members of their community, asking for nothing in return and contributing food, clothing, furniture, and for right now, a place to stay, for those who have lost everything.

Let's see now... David Pack is showing forth the Goodness of God with good works as commanded in Scripture to unselfishly help people who are hurting and disadvantaged, just how?

One definition for 'insanity' is to behave in the ...

2007-12-10T16:42:00.000+13:00

One definition for 'insanity' is to behave in the same manner again and again expecting a different result.

I pray brethren will wake up before it is too late.

We will know them by their fruits. What fruits have DP, GF and RM produced? May God have mercy on those who see them as anything more than men. I am praying for all of our brethren.

Dennis Diehl said:"Obvioulsy the solution is to be...

2007-12-10T15:40:00.000+13:00

Dennis Diehl said:

"Obvioulsy the solution is to be more honest come what may, admit to the anger, disappointment and dumb ass participation in it all."

True. It took me a very long time, Dennis, to realize (or allow myself to admit) that in addition to being mad at all the usual suspects (HWA, GTA, Rod of Iron, visiting program goons, festival parking lot attendents, etc.) that I was by far the most furious with myself for having been such a dumbass in my letting those people have any control over me in the first place. Coming to that realization helped a lot in making some significant progress in sorting things out and moving on.

Dennis also said:

"On the other hand, I had to be there, so I can be here. It's all connected in some perverse way!"

For me, if it had not been AC/WCG it would have been something else - same lessons, different circumstances.

My biggest breakthrough in finally getting some resolution to all the wcg issues was spending a lot of time on the old Ecclesia list several years ago (around 1997-2000). Thank you Bill F. and group. I hope I helped some of you as much as you helped me.

Annon.I agree...it's plausible, but seems so ludic...

2007-12-10T15:37:00.000+13:00

Annon.

I agree...it's plausible, but seems so ludicrous I'd like to know more. There must be former RCG out there with contacts who can say yea or nay to this having been spoken by Dave.

I am no fan of the Packatolla, but do we know that...

2007-12-10T15:20:00.000+13:00

I am no fan of the Packatolla, but do we know that this sermon was actually given? Theil's site does not seem to have a copy there either. Pack is certainly a false apostle, in the style of those the Apostle Paul said "transform themselves into the apostles of Christ", but I prefer not to judge a matter based on zero evidence.

On one hand, these statements seem so ludicrous th...

2007-12-10T15:19:00.000+13:00

On one hand, these statements seem so ludicrous that perhaps there is a "hoax" element to them. On the other hand, it is not beyond Dave Pack to utter such nonsense.

The fact that Bob Thiel seems only disturbed by the fact that RCG is not the real church and Dave Pack is a false apostle.

Thiel says:

" It sounds to me like he is excessively trusting in money to do the work. While money is needed to do the work, I feel that this is excessively and irresponsible for David Pack to call for people to liquidate their assets at this time."

Bob does not seem to have a sense of the lunacy of this or the cultish aspect of it all or the damage it will inflict on the gullible. He doesn't seem to recognize mental problems, only theological ones with Dave.

The reason is, sadly and of course, he is part of a church that could ask the SAME thing of it's memebers when the TRUE TIME comes. Notice he says it is excessive and irresponsible to ask such things "AT THIS TIME"

Bob disagrees with the TIMING, not the request. He has to be careful not to stick a finger in the eye of his own church leadership and what they can come up in the future when the TIMING IS RIGHT to do such things.

They are all theological loons and are going to hurt more people than they ever help.

Good point, Dennis. I hope someone does send the ...

2007-12-10T14:41:00.000+13:00

Good point, Dennis.

I hope someone does send the Pack sermon to the local newspaper. Maybe that will be enough to halt the liquidation sale.

"Go get a big chunk out of your home. ..... How ab...

2007-12-10T14:33:00.000+13:00

"Go get a big chunk out of your home. ..... How about ten, twenty, thirty, fifty, or one hundred thousand dollars? Go do it."

"Wives, you can be independent in this. You have 1/2 the worth of whatever you have in your house.

I'm officially telling you this...Wives, legally you have the 1/2 the funds. What are you going to do about it?...Husbands...'well, my wife is not in the church'...tell her...'you don't have a voice woman' "

This is classic Dave Pack. He has been known in the past to split up a couple because then the one sympathetic to the church could get half the estate and share some with RCG. Of course, in the one case I am aware of, it was the woman who was RCG friendly and Dave was NOT telling her "you don't have a voice woman." I'm sure it was more a case of pull out the old "a wife is not bound in such situations" concept since the man was the unbeliever.

The Bible lets you find what you need to apply to all of life's interesting and guru worshipping needs.

I suggest someone send Dave's comments the Akron Beacon Journal for a community interest story that might someday save the community some notoriety they don't want.

Dave better duck into his circle of protection if just one "I don't give a rats ass who Dave Pack is" mate or extended family member who becomes the victim of this utter fool decides to go have a chat with him.

Love the fish graphic.

2007-12-10T14:19:00.000+13:00

Love the fish graphic.