Comments on Ambassador Watch: Gilgamesh

Bob Thiel notes: Replica Ark"Huibers said he hopes...

2007-04-30T04:22:00.000+12:00

Bob Thiel notes: Replica Ark

"Huibers said he hopes the project will renew interest in Christianity in the Netherlands, where churchgoing has fallen dramatically in the past 50 years. He also plans to visit major cities in Belgium and Germany."

Thiel says:

"God did have Noah build an ark. And it was big enough to hold two of each "kind" of animal. It did interest me that the ark was rebuilt in the Netherlands as the Dutch are probably the least religious of the peoples of Europe."

I sugggest Bob read Gilgamesh and wonder if maybe the surity of the Noah story was pre-empted by a few thousand years. Oh I forgot, diabolical immitation! Bob forgets about the seven pair of clean types as well sounding more sunday schoolish in his belief.

Frankly, there was no Ark and no Noah carrying penguins, wombats, platypussessesssss, polar bears or
kangaroos to high mountain tops for them to fall from and find their way home. Only a very foolish person would want to add dinosaurs into the mix. But there does seem to be a local flood story which prompted the Gilgamesh tale which was later copied by Levitical Priests in captivity forging a history of Israel and the first five books of Moses. Some suspect it was the break in the near connection between the Mediterranean and what is now the Black Sea which ruptured about 7000 years ago and whoa boy, would have been memorable as the Sea poured through the plains.

Anyway, as far as reality can dictate, the first 11 books of Genesis are mythology at their best and much of the rest is not very far behind....to me. :)

The whole WCG experience can leave you in a dark h...

2007-04-29T20:38:00.000+12:00

The whole WCG experience can leave you in a dark hole. Especially when it dawns on you the magnitude of the fraud that has been perpetrated on so many thousands of very sincere people.

I walked away from it all a few times, then got requests from people for information, and thanks from others for information I provided in the past, and that makes giving witness to what one has seen worthwhile.

I just saw The Departed and talk about dark but great movie. I'm still thinking about it. Lots of interesting twists on the nature of evil and seldom is it what we think it is.

True evil comes not from the devil but from a mindless bureaucracy of people "just doing their jobs" and keeping up appearances. Hitler marched Jews to the gas chambers with the efficiency of IBM punch cards. No wonder Jesus last words were "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do" (they aren't even conscious).

I think I will read "The Road".

Hey Kathleen,No,actually I haven't. Have read revi...

2007-04-29T06:25:00.000+12:00

Hey Kathleen,
No,actually I haven't. Have read reviews and portions online, but reading dark things at the moment is not something that works for me. I will in time. It's kinda like this from the book...

The son asks his father:

"Are you real brave?
Just medium.
What’s the bravest thing you ever did?
He spat into the road a bloody phlegm. Getting up this morning, he said." (229)

Mainstream pastors know all about Gilgamesh, but u...

2007-04-29T05:23:00.000+12:00

Mainstream pastors know all about Gilgamesh, but unless a church member takes a graduate level seminary course, such as the Episcopal Church's Education for Ministry, he/she isn't likely to hear about Gilgamesh--at least from the pulpit.

Then there's the Jesus and Mary prototypes in Eurpides' The Bacchae. I didn't meet them in Education for Ministry; I was introduced to the Bacchae in an introduction to ancient lit. class in college. Between my minor in history and a major in literature I came out of college feeling pretty disillusioned about most things I used to believe were true.

A great novel that addresses some of these things in principle is Cormac McCarthy's The Road. I read it in January and it still haunts me.

Hey Dennis, have you read it yet????

As long at I'm thinking about it..."Corinthians 7:...

2007-04-27T13:05:00.000+12:00

As long at I'm thinking about it...

"Corinthians 7:32-34

32 I would like you to be free from concern. An unmarried man is concerned about the Lord's affairs—how he can please the Lord.

This has hardly been my experience over three decades of ministering.

33But a married man is concerned about the affairs of this world—

No..that would be the single guy

"how he can please his wife—"

Again...not a general problem with the married men in my experience. I never had to tell them to stop showing so much attention to the wife and get more into the church. Most were getting into the church to get away from the wife.

34"and his interests are divided."

No, this would be the single guy.

"An unmarried woman or virgin is concerned about the Lord's affairs:"

Um...again, not my real experience in life with humans and church.

" Her aim is to be devoted to the Lord in both body and spirit."

Uh...no.....this was not a big problem in any church I pastored. I never had to tell the single women to stop the bible study and purificiation rights and meet some guys.

"But a married woman is concerned about the affairs of this world—how she can please her husband."

Um...no....That would be the single gal or a newly married woman, for a short time.

Again..we do have the Pauline solution...

"36 If anyone thinks he is acting improperly toward the virgin he is engaged to, and if she is getting along in years..

Sounds like the engagement period might be a tad bit too long...

"and he feels he ought to marry, he should do as he wants."

Great! Problem solved, he can do what he wants.

"He is not sinning. They should get married."

Thank you Paul! I was afraid wanting a genuine relationship while I live on the planet was a sin and that getting married to her was a sin..but now you have cleared that up.

Ever wonder how many people Paul made miserable with his advice and councel on relationships..because..

"29What I mean, brothers, is that the time is short."

It wasn't really...

"From now on (Till how long?) those who have wives should live as if they had none;"

Finally something the married guys can get into to! They were way ahead of the curve of advice here no doubt...

30"those who mourn, as if they did not; those who are happy, as if they were not;"

Not to worry..happy was not a common emotion in the Corinithian congregation.

"those who buy something, as if it were not theirs to keep; 31those who use the things of the world, as if not engrossed in them. For this world in its present form is passing away."

But for those particular humans, it really wasn't and again, we have to ask how many gave up their brains to Paul and missed out on the advice of the Tavern Keeper in Gilgamesh. I mean, who was really the more real and balanced theologian here?

.....
Humans are born, they live, then they die,
this is the order that the gods have decreed.
But until the end comes, enjoy your life,
spend it in hapiness, not despair.
Savour your food, make each of your days
a delight, bathe and anoint yourself,
wear bright clothes that are sparkling clean,
let music and dancing fill your house,
love the child who holds you by the hand,
and give your wife pleasure in your embrace.
That is the best way for a man to live.

Mosul or Corinth? Seems obvious! :)

"Look," the trapper said, "there he is.Now use you...

2007-04-27T12:38:00.000+12:00

"Look," the trapper said, "there he is.
Now use your love-arts...
Stir up his lust when he approaches,
touch him, excite him, take his breath
with your kisses, show him what a woman is." Gilgamesh

fast forward 3000 years...

"A woman should learn in quietness and FULL submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man: she MUST be silent. FOR (the reason being) Adam was formed first, THEN Eve. (Of course, if this is mythology, which it is, then we'd have to look askew at literal laws based on myth), And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a SINNER. But (whew) women will be saved through childbearing.. (gee thanks...what if I can't have kids?)IF they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety..." "Paul" I Tim 2: 11-15

You've come a long way baby!

I guess we have to realize that history depicts Paul as short, hooknosed, rather unattractive and a bit predisposed to not being married,marriagable or having any healthy male/female relationships in his life. Some would say he struggled with..well you know. This would probably be because he was short, hooknosed, rather unattractive and prone to hallucinatory religious experiences from which he derived his instructions to mortals.

Good thing Paul COMMANDED partners not to deny each other unless it was for prayer time and then to not pray too long, lest Satan tempt them for their lack of self control (what the heck does that mean?) Aaaaaaaaaaaand...finally Paul gives the true motivation for loving and sensual relationships..."But if they can't control themselves..gee willikers...if you must, go ahead and marry, ewwwwwwwwww, for it is better to marry than to be horny."

Well that's close enough..

You go Gilgamesh! :)

If Jack and The Beanstalk had been included in the...

2007-04-27T11:16:00.000+12:00

If Jack and The Beanstalk had been included in the canon, literal minded fundamentalists would think it was God-breathed, inerrant and infallible scripture. They would also completely miss the moral of the tale and get into endless arguments about what type of bean the stalk grew from.

dennisdiehl wrote:

Think how much BS would have to be retracted by ministers, Apostles and Evangelist types should they ever come to face this fact. Nothing springs from a vacuum.... not Sabbaths, Holydays, practices, beliefs or the laws that run groups larger than one.

While disillusioning at first...recognizing the origins of the Bible, the mythologies and the politic of it all is liberating.

In California we see the constant swirling melange of culture that emerges from Spanish, Mexican, Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Anglo, and Jewish people.

The result is a meditating surfer eating a fish taco. Strange? Perhaps, but like dennisdiehl says, nothing emerges from a vacuum.

California is what happens when Buddhism meets Catholicism. We are all products of our environment, even the people who wrote the Bible.

Good to see a decent translation of Gilgamesh, the version I have must have been translated by a Priest, he put all the "juicy bits" into Latin. Its really a pain to have to look up all the Latin words to see what one is missing.

Gilgamesh says at the end of his life:"For whom ha...

2007-04-27T09:12:00.000+12:00

Gilgamesh says at the end of his life:

"For whom have I labored? For whom have I journeyed?
For whom have I suffered?
I have gained absolutely nothing for myself,
I have only profited the snake.."

Hey! I like this guy..he understands! :)

One of many not so unique to the Bible sources of lore and mythology. The most difficult truth a literalist Christian will ever come or not come to is the fact that the Bible is neither unique nor written by the hand of God. Think how much BS would have to be retracted by ministers, Apostles and Evangelist types should they ever come to face this fact. Nothing springs from a vacuum.... not Sabbaths, Holydays, practices, beliefs or the laws that run groups larger than one. While disillusioning at first...recognizing the origins of the Bible, the mythologies and the politic of it all is liberating.