Comments on Ambassador Watch: Hillsong - Pt. 2

feel free Douglas. Hey wait, "only God corrects m...

2007-11-25T10:38:00.000+13:00

feel free Douglas. Hey wait, "only God corrects me..." Hmm, that never worked well for me. ha. moving right along...

OK Dennis, the next time I give you a painful back...

2007-11-25T10:26:00.000+13:00

OK Dennis, the next time I give you a painful backhanded compliment I will be sure to make it excruciatingly complimentary.

one last time: I'm sitting here at my hospital jo...

2007-11-25T09:39:00.000+13:00

one last time: I'm sitting here at my hospital job (obvious access to the internet) where I work all weekend, every weekend when not at my practice during the week. It's prophets, priests,pastors and the sick all day long. Someone called me an SOB for not parking his car (not my job yet.ha)and a Franciscan Priest just told me I had nice brown eyes. I miss sabbath services...sorta.

ok..outa here!

funny, we crossed comments. Consider it stuffed :)...

2007-11-25T09:31:00.000+13:00

funny, we crossed comments. Consider it stuffed :)

Actually, I apologize for my own tone here to your...

2007-11-25T09:30:00.000+13:00

Actually, I apologize for my own tone here to your response. I know you have had your personal experience and have done much to inform others of how people are manipulated and abused by religious "leaders."

I've had my experience too. However, I have two choices in my own life. Be bitter, angry and the victim or count it as a life experience that I chose to be there for and probably had to be there to now be here. Experience, to me, is really the only good teacher. The rest is hearsay.

The last sermon I ever gave was "Nothing is for nothing." That's what I believe even if I can't fill in all the holes.

regards.

I'll be more careful in the future not to add any ...

2007-11-25T09:03:00.000+13:00

I'll be more careful in the future not to add any further unnecessary crapology when ask by somone else to the mix.

Oh, stuff it Dennis. Without your comments, the venue lacks the proper saturation of richness of sophistication it deserves.

So please continue to be redundant at times, because it adds so much to understanding, particularly for those who visit here who are rather on the dense side [as opposed to the majority].

Thanks for your corrective insight Doug. I'll be m...

2007-11-25T08:53:00.000+13:00

Thanks for your corrective insight Doug. I'll be more careful in the future not to add any further unnecessary crapology when ask by somone else to the mix.

Dennis,Thank you so much for giving my invented te...

2007-11-25T08:23:00.000+13:00

Dennis,

Thank you so much for giving my invented terminology unnecessary validation.

Crapology it is. Old Covenant crapology. New Covenant crapology.

Crapology [my definition of my own invented word]: The study of anything from the venue of the church of gods, including, but not restricted to the WCG, particularly material materialized from the whole cloth of nothing in particular, by pastards.

Any clarification of Gavin's position is, in my opinion, unnecessary, because he rendered the appropriate obfuscation in the spirit of the question as asked.

All that to say.."beware of whatever idea of coven...

2007-11-25T08:22:00.000+13:00

All that to say.."beware of whatever idea of covenants you pick and who and how they are packaged for your easy deception."

Gosh, you'd think something as important as eternal salvation or eternal banishment depending on whether one "gets it" would have been explained better by the Deity!

Dennis here.."Old, New, Reconditioned or Pre-loved...

2007-11-25T07:55:00.000+13:00

Dennis here..

"Old, New, Reconditioned or Pre-loved Covenants... Beware the one-stop, package deal, shrink-wrapped, mail order, faith in a box with preloaded platitudes (no refunds)."

Gavin, to me, meant that the WCG meltdown for Jesus was one extreme but was not comfy with calling New Covenant Theology 'crapology' WCG has reinvented crapology with a twist in my humble opinion.

The other extreme is allowing the guru, slick package, I got the truth types to get your brains. To me, these would be the Oral Roberts, Benny Hinn, TBN (Jan Big Hair and cowboy man), and personality driven ministries that pack em in and sell sell sell. It was a "beware of pre-packaged spirituality and truth" statement to me. Reality is not so simple

I'm sure he'll read your comment and clarify it if need be.

I have spoken English all my life, and am widely r...

2007-11-25T07:32:00.000+13:00

I have spoken English all my life, and am widely read and fairly well (self) educated but in the previous discussion Gavin wrote:
"Old, New, Reconditioned or Pre-loved Covenants... Beware the one-stop, package deal, shrink-wrapped, mail order, faith in a box with preloaded platitudes (no refunds)."
I am having a problem under- standing this verbiage. Can you explain, Dennis? What did Gavin say to you here?

Lochinvar

I can't believe what I used to think I had to beli...

2007-11-25T06:30:00.000+13:00

I can't believe what I used to think I had to believe to believe.

Part of the problem here is bad influences.

The minister in question, with what is now a three person work, used to be somewhat reasonable until that day that Wade Cox called him and persuaded him of certain things. Suddenly, out of the clear blue, two former CCg members were "attending" with him. That is when things really started to change to go weird.

What used to be "sort of reasonable" became nuttier and nuttier. Soon, there were "New Moon" services. Oh, and if it is cold out, and you need a fire in your fire place, you'd very well better have lit a candle before sunset on the Sabbath, or you can very well freeze to death, rather than being guilty of lighting a fire on the Sabbath.

The fallen angels with women producing giants was only a part of it.

"People will write off even the clearest, most lov...

2007-11-25T06:10:00.000+13:00

"People will write off even the clearest, most loving person in the world when he opposes their belief system. They will invalidate him, negate him, obliterate him, prove that he's wrong, he's a fraud, he's dangerous to society, so that they can protect what they really believe is important. They'd rather be right than free" -- Byron Katie

"If I [Jesus] bear witness of myself, my witness i...

2007-11-25T06:03:00.000+13:00

"If I [Jesus] bear witness of myself, my witness is not true." (John 5:31)

"I [Jesus] am one that bear witness of myself..." (John 8:18)

Hey, I'd like to hear anyone answer this! Is the witness of Jesus true or not true?

Bible Question ApproachesWWDD What would Dave Do?...

2007-11-25T05:59:00.000+13:00

Bible Question Approaches

WWDD What would Dave Do?

He'd probably delete you from the circle of protection and give a four hour sermon.

WWJD What would Joe Do

He'd probable say "As long as you love Jesus who cares?" and speak for 20 minutes on nothing meaningful.

WWGD What would Gerald Do

Curse you and never speak to you again.

WWJD What would Jesus Do?

Say.."I never said one of those things..you pick."

I'd like to hear the official LCG or UCG take on t...

2007-11-25T05:40:00.000+13:00

I'd like to hear the official LCG or UCG take on these statments.

Experience talking here:

1) The UCG officially asks that you take the issue off of your website for 30 days while they "study" the issue.

2) They will issue a personal statement to you in four months, which is not to be shared openly with others.

3) In the statement, you will be told that you do not have the authority to question their decisions -- that they are the legacy of God's one true church.

4) You will be told that you cannot bring the question to the attention of others in the church.

5) You will be tacitly pressured to leave -- all while being oh, so friendly about it.

6) After several years of study on the topic by the Council of Elders, a "white paper" will be issued to firmly take a stand that the issue is likely not what it seems.

The LCG on the other hand has a much more direct approach:

To completely ignore you and continue to preach heresy in the name of the false prophet, Roderick Meredith. Meanwhile, you *ARE* disfellowshipped. They just won't bother to tell you.

I ended up knowing a lot about Jesus but no 'knowi...

2007-11-25T05:32:00.000+13:00

I ended up knowing a lot about Jesus but no 'knowing' Jesus as my final manpower evaluation

For those of us who first and foremost have wanted to really know God, it is a most profound disappointment that no minister anywhere in any venue has been able to fulfill the need of enlightenment. The only thing anyone could reasonably conclude from this painful experience is that one cannot teach what one does not now and has not experienced. Preachers preach around God but not about Him.

The educated quietly voice their own doubts when we talk, but generally can live with it because of other good things they feel they are doing for people.

It is called compartmentalization. Oft good intentions don't get people as far as they would have hoped -- even though the effort may be appreciated on some fronts. Double-mindedness does not send a clear message of hope to those who need it most. People sense these things without necessarily being conscious of them.

Being in Hillsong or the WCG or any other abusive cult is a lot like a woman who has chosen an abusive boyfriend, "Mr. Wrong". Unfortunately, "stand by your man" often is a lot stronger than "from such turn away".

In the end, the only thing the cultmeisters really understand is superior force. Unfortunately, it is not as easy in the case of a cult for dad to simply call immigration for that illegal with the social security number and birth date and wait six months for them to be deported to save your daughter from abuse or even death. These days, there isn't sufficient force from anywhere to rescue people from abusive religions unless a God whose Mercy never fails intervenes.

"If I [Jesus] bear witness of myself, my witness i...

2007-11-25T04:29:00.000+13:00

"If I [Jesus] bear witness of myself, my witness is not true." (John 5:31)

"I [Jesus] am one that bear witness of myself..." (John 8:18)

I'd like to hear the official LCG or UCG take on these statments.

"All religions are founded on the fears of the man...

2007-11-25T03:55:00.000+13:00

"All religions are founded on the fears of the many and the craftiness of the few."

Splits not slits! I always had a hard time with s...

2007-11-25T03:02:00.000+13:00

Splits not slits! I always had a hard time with saying "shits and splisms in God's church" too.

Dennis here: Google sign in is not my friend!I be...

2007-11-25T02:58:00.000+13:00

Dennis here: Google sign in is not my friend!

I believe we will see the constant erosion of Christian minister credibility on all fronts more and more in our culture. Oral Roberts Jr. just got sacked for his forgetting the oft told story it's not a family business. A major mega church one man show in Atlanta just tanked for all of the above plus a few new twists. Locally, it is a circus if you know who to talk to.

I know any number of COG attendees who attend for the fellowship but are not confident of the story being told.

I get email all the time from those who have moved on in their perspectives and have struggle with the loss of meaning since in the WCG meaning was what we were all experts in.

This is true of all such experiences in all religions. I found it at 14. I perpetuated it because I REALLY believed God wanted me to, and I lost it from many directions at the same time. Life goes on.

Most COG ministers of all splinters fail to understand that just because they come up with it, it is credible. I know COG ministers who now simply have to say, "we can accept your differences" because they can't afford to keep bleeding out members.

A well thought out difference of perspective works wonders for tolerance when they don't want to loose you. For all of us, this was not our experience to say the least. I ended up knowing a lot about Jesus but no 'knowing' Jesus as my final manpower evaluation :)And I firmly believe I personally would have come to my current skepticism at midlife with any denomination I had come to believe had "the truth." My isses evolved from the WCG/HWA experience and drama to a bigger problem with the Text and everything associated with it. I'm not concerned I won't find the true church, work or belief in time anymore.

Members of all churches don't have to rely on asking their minister anything much anymore about alternative perspectives. What you had to practically stumble upon in the past is now readily available to consider. Here in the South, ministers tend to just up the volume, invoke Satan, warn the members against this or that information and hope for the best.

I know many very sincere male and female ministerial types of many denominations. The educated quietly voice their own doubts when we talk, but generally can live with it because of other good things they feel they are doing for people. I just listen quietly to the literalists and rabid Baptist believers as they have a one way brain. They talk but can't and won't listen...information is scary to them.

The US has had it's Hillsong phenomenon for years. It spawns all sorts of crazyness that people buy until they don't. What is supposed to help people hurts them in the long run. It saps their resources and sucks out their once hopeful souls and leaving a hole that is not easily filled. Some of course, simply hop to another church to fill it as fast as they can because that hole hurts.

The Christianity of "all one body we..." does not exist and never did. By nature it will always Slits, splinters, slivers and sawdust.

"For example, the Church of God Most High is very ...

2007-11-25T02:23:00.000+13:00

"For example, the Church of God Most High is very strong that angels did have intercourse with human women to produce giants, while United say not so"

Well now we can at least understand why childbirth would start to be painful as a result of Eve's sin.

Angels are known not to marry nor be given in marriage, but they do fornicate evidently.

I can't believe what I used to think I had to believe to believe.

Who'd have guessed that the prosperity gospel-soak...

2007-11-25T02:16:00.000+13:00

Who'd have guessed that the prosperity gospel-soaked, tongues speaking types who gyrate to hypnotic worship music in the Assemblies of God have anything in common with Armstrongism.

I came across this statement that gives a clue.

"preachers, like all shrewd marketers, know how to reach their market.”

“Philip Powell, a Pentecostal preacher and a former general-secretary of the AOG, is concerned by the more flamboyant Pentecostal churches. "It is my conviction that the present Pentecostal leaders like Brian Houston [pastor of Hillsong] and Phil Pringle [pastor of Christian City Church] have hijacked the godly movement, which was simply a fellowship of churches. They have turned it into a hierarchical denomination for selfish purposes and ends.

It has become a fellowship of ministers, not churches," he says.

http://www.trinityfi.org/press/GodsMillionaires.html

" Beneath the happy-clappy lobotomised veneer the ...

2007-11-24T20:39:00.000+13:00

" Beneath the happy-clappy lobotomised veneer the sociology and the psychology is nearly identical."

I was looking forward to Pt II on Hilsong - an interesting case study.

At Least One Major DifferenceOne thing that makes ...

2007-11-24T20:14:00.000+13:00

At Least One Major Difference

One thing that makes Armstrongism different from such venues of Hillsong is the rich tapestry of weird variations it produces making it almost a study of comparative religions in itself.

Whereas, people may become disgruntled with Hillsong and just quit, it isn't like a big block of them object to the doctrines and then split to form their own unique brand of Hillsong.

But in the realm of the church of gods, there has been what appears to be an unprecedented degree of fragmentation in a very brief period of time. Part of this is a result of the Worldwide Church of God producing doctrines 180 degrees from those of the original founder -- something which doesn't seem to have happened much in other religions. In other religions, it's more of the same, but different. In the WCG its totally different, except for the warped personalities of some of the originals staying with the same name but everything else different religion.

One would think that the variations would be limited and simplistic, and the simplistic view is that an outsider couldn't much tell the difference between and amongst the some 1,000 spit-offs from the original, but that is not the case. There is a wide variation in the fundamental personalities of the core key players in each of the church of gods. For example, the Council of Elders at United looks quite a lot different from the Board over at Living. The approaches, particularly those in governance and treatment of people is quite different.

In some of the smaller flavors, the doctrines can be quite radically different. For example, the Church of God Most High is very strong that angels did have intercourse with human women to produce giants, while United say not so. Then United, Living, Restored and Philadelphia are adamantly on one side of eating out in restaurants on the Sabbath, while The Christian Churches of God, Church of God Most High and Eternal Church of God are on the other. There are all sorts of calendars to be kept, even the sliver of the moon by the followers of William Dankenbring.

The Evangelicals don't usually go as weird as those nut cases which have gone off to the back woods, such as Ron Weinland. You don't generally have lawsuits develop as you have had in the case of Port Austen.

One quick look at The Journal pretty much sums it up: There's all sorts of belief systems out there. Only one God? Well, the ACD can fill you in on that one. Most of the rest go with two. Or ultimately billions, depending upon how you count.

The fate of Satan? He's going to die, if you ask some of those in some of the church of gods. The rest, he's going to be around forever in darkness and blackness.

And your salvation isn't so very limited outside of Hillsong. Christians had it before joining and will probably have it after leaving -- in theory anyway. But unless you go with Pack and Flurry you are destined for the Lake of Fire. Unless you join up with one of the others, you will be worshiping at the feet of those in the group of 50 people or so who see things differently from all the other church of gods.

Oh, there may a flavor of this or that in other cultic groups, but Armstrongism is absolutely rich in the context of diversity.