Comments on Ambassador Watch: Living In Denial

Anon 9:38, have you ever had a logic class? Again,...

2009-02-15T16:00:00.000+13:00

Anon 9:38, have you ever had a logic class? Again, people can say all day what they want but just because someone does not answer the allegations, does not make them true! You seem to have a real problem getting over that hump.

Show me where HWA admitted in court to incest. YOU ARE LYING!! The suppossed admissions to individuals is hearsay and all from people with an axe to grind.The witnessed nothing! If there were proof of incest, HWA would have been in prison.

Because someone chooses not to answer allegations,...

2009-02-15T09:38:00.000+13:00

Because someone chooses not to answer allegations, doesn't mean they are guilty! Why can't you get that? That is non-sequitar thinking!"

It is not non sequitur. Premise A precedes conclusion B.

The premises of the logic are that:
1. Armstrong personally admitted out of his own mouth to the incest (an admission strongly against his own personal interest) to Robinson and to a number of others.

2. Since Armstrong personally admitted to having incest with Dorothy, (an admission strongly against his own personal interest) it logically follows Armstrong is in fact guilty of incest.

Not a stretch.

Armstrong DID answer the incest allegations through his lawsuit. He had personally admitted to the incest. He argued his confession of incest with Dorothy was a WCG confidential secret amongst his ministry, and that Robinson did not have the legal right to disclose his incest with Dorothy in Tangled Web.

Just David Antion about it.

Anon 6:27, you would have been AWESOME in the Sale...

2009-02-15T03:38:00.000+13:00

Anon 6:27, you would have been AWESOME in the Salem Witch trial days! You would be like, "I heard someone say that they knew of someone who talked to Goody Goode and Goody Goode personally told them she was a witch. When confronted, Goody Goode said nothing! Therefore, let's hang Goody Goode for being a witch!"

Good luck with your "thinking"! I doubt you'll ever get over the bitterness you have for a guy that has been dead for over 20 years.

Anon 6:27, you're such a clown! Because someone ch...

2009-02-15T02:22:00.000+13:00

Anon 6:27, you're such a clown! Because someone chooses not to answer allegations, doesn't mean they are guilty! Why can't you get that? That is non-sequitar thinking!
Anon 6:27, I believe you are a pedophile. I have heard SEVERAL others state that you are. Therefore,it MUST be true! Now you have as much evidence against you as HWA!! See how that works?

"If this were a serious matter, I'd take HWA's cas...

2009-02-14T18:27:00.000+13:00

"If this were a serious matter, I'd take HWA's case. Easy money."

Would you?

If this Armstrong incest book were such an easy case (as you assert) for Armstrong to win, for an entire "Armstrong army" of high-priced attorneys with an unlimited budget, able to call any and all witnesses to set the record straight, including Dorothy and Vern Mattson - just why did they embarrassngly lose this entire case?

Please explain what rules of evidence, hearsay and burdens of proof, or tort theories of the case were these high-priced WCG attorneys unaware of or unable to exploit against Robinson. Cite you own evidence articles, cases or anything else if you want. Please inform us all.

Furthermore, when that first lawsuit didn’t work, why didn’t they try another, and have HWA and Dorothy and Vern Mattson individually sue the heck out of Robinson under libel, if that's what it really was, and not the truth?

Explain what would be the primary nature of Robinson’s defense in a libel suit by Armstrong involving incest, drunkenness and other related charges, and how Armstrong could win such a case.

Easy money would NOT have filed this pre-publication lawsuit. I think you would agree with that.

Easy money would have charged libel for sure; and HWA could have had Vern and Dorothy herself blow the Robinson incest and other intoxication allegations sky-high, clear out of the water on the witness stand, to the amusement of the WCG attorneys, all flush with WCG cash in their wallets. Dorothy would have an entertaining all-expenses paid trip to Tulsa and back, personal motivation to clear her good reputation, and easily kept her personal reputation intact. Dorothy would testify how utterly ludicrous such nonsensical, Jerry Springeresque incest accusations John Robinson had scurrilously made against her good name, her husband and the good name of her father and Armstrong family and the good name of the WCG.

So since the hair-trigger litigation-happy coward Armstrong used straw men to sue Robinson to stand in for himself on privacy grounds, why didn’t he finance Dorothy and Vern to also sue the heck out of Robinson themselves for libel, for some easy money and legal revenge? Because the Plain Truth was standing in the way.

..."what you've written above is almost an exact d...

2009-02-14T17:28:00.000+13:00

..."what you've written above is almost an exact description of hearsay"

Almost isn't good enough.

If you knew the proper legal definition of hearsay the judge would apply in this Robinson case, you would have already cited the definition.

There are many valid exceptions to the hearsay rule, enough to fly a 747 through. Just because something is hearsay doesn't mean it doesn't get in and the jury doesn't hear it.

If you want to impeach Robinson, you're going to have to be more specific than that.

Anon 3:16 said "No, it't not. Armstrong made a per...

2009-02-14T10:17:00.000+13:00

Anon 3:16 said "No, it't not. Armstrong made a personal confession, an admission against interest, a declaration against his own interest, therefore having the ring of truth, of his incest with Dorothy, directly in person to John Robinson."

Dude, what you've written above is almost an exact description of hearsay. Someone telling us that he heard someone say something. Unless HWA confessed in court, or to me personally, I would not believe it. Robinson had a HUGE ax to grind and I knew the man..he was a wacko and a liar! There were good reasons he was booted.

Anon 10:25, it was not Phil Rice's daughter that d...

2009-02-14T10:11:00.000+13:00

Anon 10:25, it was not Phil Rice's daughter that died but rather Don Mason's and it occured at the FOT in Lake of the Ozarks. I too attended in Tulsa. However, by focusing on raising our children right, what standard are we to use? It seems to me that by teaching our children the ten commandments, the very laws our society today is rejecting, we were and are teaching our children the proper way to function in the world.

I grew up in the Tulsa WCG church until 1984 when ...

2009-02-13T10:25:00.000+13:00

I grew up in the Tulsa WCG church until 1984 when that beloved "minister of God," Phil Rice, decided that my parents (and consequently us children) were unworthy to attend at the Lewis & Clarke middle school every sabbath and excommunicated them; the one and the same that let his daughter die during the FOT years before because he would prove that God would save her. Needless to say that God did not save her and she died; perhaps he should have been a bit less self-righteous and self-absorbed.

All of my family attended as did my mother's mother and father and his family. I do believe, however, it was a blessing that they were kicked to the curb so that the wretchedness didn't spread to us all. Subsequently, all of the family was excommunicated.

Honestly, I'm so tired of it all this crap I just can't stand it any more. All of you, whether stuck on the HWA incest or trying to defend the wretched man, should just drop it. Face it, they all lied to us and they all abused us and nothing we do now will ever change it; no amount of talking about it will change it.

What amazes me more than anything is that all of you, and I mean all of you who were a part of that cultish mess (including my parents) helped destroy this country we live in. Yes, you read correctly - destroyed it!

Do you want to know how? Because instead of focusing on teaching your children how to live in this world and teaching others that it made sense to "run for office" and be politically active so that your influence would abound and you could help defend this Republic and hence spread God's word and stop tyranny in the process, you - all of you - decided to get bogged down in mindless and endless diatribes and rants on this doctrine and that doctrine and if we should observe a moon on this day and not that one and who should be looking and from where and when the wheat was picked and what day should the passover be observed and can you eat this fish or that bird and a myriad of other distractions that lead you astray from the real problems - that being that our country, and consequently our livelihood and our children's future and birthright was taken away by a whole host and plethora of evil, despotic thugs out to destroy us all. But no, you have to worry about HWA and GTA and the like and they're DEAD! More dead than a bottle of motor oil!

I'm just sick of it because the world has crumbled around us and our country is in the death throws right now and rather than studying the bible and realizing that the laws of God were intended to free us from the tyranny around us (just as the founding fathers discovered) you turned them into a nightmarish burden from which there was no escape. God said "You shall not steal," but we steal from each other every day because we use a monetary system of unjust weights and balances (which, by the way, God also told us not to use) that requires us to rob and steal from our neighbors for our daily bread. All of you allowed HWA to steal from you and it was your own hand that gave it to him; you just let him do it so how could it be any different if a government official tells you to do the same?

God told us not to practice lending with interest and yet here we are and that's all we do. We are such hypocrites; all of us, for we have really done it now by practicing all the sins we weren't supposed to but we sure did have to make absolutely sure we observed Passover on the correct night or it was the lake of fire!

God said you shall have no others before him and yet you went to the government with your hat in your hand asking for the goverment's blessing on your church so that you could get special exemption for taxation! Sounds like idolatry to me. You just wanted something in return for your fat donations.

Instead of worrying about things that absolutely cannot change (such as the incest of HWA's daughter), why not change the things that you can and really start putting a muffler on the tyranny that is so plaguing our nation?

"This case is weak and the article is based on tot...

2009-02-11T15:16:00.000+13:00

"This case is weak and the article is based on total hearsay."

No, it't not. Armstrong made a personal confession, an admission against interest, a declaration against his own interest, therefore having the ring of truth, of his incest with Dorothy, directly in person to John Robinson.

Robinson made a written recollection of the uncoerced incest confession he heard, directly from Armstrong's own mouth-not from a second or third or forth hand party to the conversation.

Armstrong confessed to having sexual relations-"all the way"-with sixteen year old Dorothy.

If Armstrong wanted to, he could have had Robinson cross-examined about it when he was alive.

If he hadn't had incestual relations with Dorothy, he could have easily shredded Robinson in court. But since he did, so he argued it should be kept religously private, and not published. That didn't work constitutionally.

But I guess you don't comprehend the basics of unprecedented 1st amendment pre-publication censorship, and want your innocent idol Armstrong to hide behind the 4th and 5th.

"Your story is way off. People are convicted every...

2009-02-09T04:53:00.000+13:00

"Your story is way off. People are convicted every day who take the fifth and remain silent. In a real trial, Armstrong would have been convicted of molesting, forcefully sexually assaulting, raping his own daughter based on the credible testimony of these reliable witnesses."

Sorry but you don't understand neither my point or the basic tenants of US law. This case is weak and the article is based on total hearsay. However, you can continue to keep your head in the sand and your bitterness in your heart for whatever good that is doing you.

As someone who practices law, and has authored law...

2009-02-02T22:56:00.000+13:00

As someone who practices law, and has authored law review articles on the rules of evidence, and burdens of proof, I'd have to say that the so-called "proof" for this allegation is...well...nonexistent. Jerry Springeresque accusations based on negative inferences drawn from the fact that someone didn't do this or that, are just nonsense. I've seen the so called "damning" proof which the proponents of this theory have claimed to have, but in the end no one can point to one shred of credible evidence aside from a rumored shouting match which was reported by someone who clearly had it in for HWA.

If this were a serious matter, I'd take HWA's case. Easy money.

"....HWA dying before the coming of "the kingdom" ...

2009-02-02T15:53:00.000+13:00

"....HWA dying before the coming of "the kingdom" paralleled Moses being barred from the promised land; there was probably some "reason"".

Yaaaaaaaarrrrrgggggggghhhhhhh bad Waterhouse flashback yuckblechptooeyurgyeeeeecccchhhh!

That was a horrible Waterhouse special.....I think even gold-plated-iron-and-clay-tongued Gerry sensed an ill wind blowing out of Senior's and Junior's butts by that point.........

"What sort of ‘low life’ was Vern, to cosy up with HWA, and to continue to expose his new wife to the potential advances of her father?"

One who got a sizable enough chunk of "special offering" money to sway him to the idea that discretion would keep him and his living in the manner to which they had become accustomed.

Hi Questeruk,-- There are a number of other detail...

2009-02-02T08:19:00.000+13:00

Hi Questeruk,

-- There are a number of other details that just do not stack up, things that even in a dysfunctional family are just not going to happen.--

In other words, you have never experienced this level of dysfunction in a family. Good.

As someone who know what it's like to have a family member accused of incest, to listen to all sides of the story and still not know who's telling the truth, I can say this:

You don't know how you would act if you found yourself thrust into such a situation. If, say, tomorrow someone you love/respect/trust were to accuse someone else that you also love/respect/trust, you would have a very hard time processing that accusation with anything even approaching rationality.

The very framework of everything you believed about people who have been within arm's reach for years turns out to be radically different from what you thought was true. Trying to figure out just what is true, trying to figure out just how to link the false past with the horribly real present so that you can pick up the pieces and start building a completely different future, is, well...

It strains a person's sense of reality. People don't act rationally.

You question Vern Mattson's gun-waving reaction. You wonder about Dorothy's hush-hush reaction to being so completely dominated. I find both extremely believable.

Libro

GTA's answer to Bob Thiel reminds me of the time h...

2009-02-01T18:44:00.000+13:00

GTA's answer to Bob Thiel reminds me of the time he was asked 'What does porneia mean?' before the 1974 changes, and he responded with 'look it up.' 'When [GTA] came to the question "What is the meaning of porneia?", he responded, not with the truth as he knew it, but with the cryptic remark "Look it up."'Home Breaking, Ambassador Report 2, heading, 'The "New, Improved" Doctrine'.

Neotherm said... "Ambassador Report is hardly a cr...

2009-02-01T18:43:00.000+13:00

Neotherm said...
"Ambassador Report is hardly a credible source of objective reporting."

Neo,I strongly disagree. For over 20+ years, the late John Trechak and his friends at Ambassador Report established a track record of accuracy and objective reporting that HWA or any of his followers ever came close to matching in their various publications, sermons, newspapers or letters. I was impressed that John retained that objectivity to the degree that he did over that long time period.

At this point can it be proven that HWA committed incest? In my opinion - no, at least no to the degree that would be required in a criminal trial. HWA and Dorothy are dead.

The level of proof is less outside a criminal trial. OJ Simpson walked on the double murder charge but was found guily in a subsequent civil trial for essential the same charge dressed up in a different suit (not the recently concluded trial in Las Vegas.)

Did he do it? Yes, in my humble opinion.

I agree with Mary Lane in that in such cases littl...

2009-02-01T17:10:00.000+13:00

I agree with Mary Lane in that in such cases little attention is shown for the (alleged) victim. FWIW, the last word I heard on Dorothy was in a sermon by GTA; apparently she and her husband joined the ICG.

Everything you really need to know about my father is contained within the Autobiography.

Doesn't matter; no comment, the press statement is enough. In his WCG days, GTA dismissed an interview with an author by saying "All you need to know is in the (Plain Truth) magazine."

"two thirds fiction"

To the true believer, it doesn't matter...

Everyone is very keen to leap on the bandwagon on ...

2009-02-01T14:35:00.000+13:00

Everyone is very keen to leap on the bandwagon on this incest thing. But the story as told in this blog has many details that just do not weigh up.

For example, the hotel incident.

“Dorothy has claimed that Herbert then overpowered her, and after tying her to the bed and gagging her, proceeded to rape her”.

Taking this at face value, perhaps we should realise that if true, then at that time HWA was liable to the death penalty!

The law stemmed from the Lindbergh kidnapping, and if a victim was physically harmed in any manner, the crime qualified for the death penalty.

The death penalty was applied in the famous Carol Chessman case. In 1948 Chessman was condemned to death on two counts of kidnapping, which was interpreted as him compelling his victim to get into his car, where attempted rape occurred, which qualified as physical harm. The death penalty was finally carried out on him in 1960.

If you compare the Chessman case with the alleged hotel offence, then I would suggest that the HWA action was probably more serious.

So let’s understand what is being discussed here. This is a crime where the state was passing the death sentence for similar and less serious crimes.

Having said that, next we find his daughter, the rape victim, enjoying Friday evening nights out dancing with her rapist father, and accompanying him on business trips. And this is not now a young teenager, but a grown up independent woman.

Just how realistic is the behaviour of Vern Mattson?

When he finds out what is supposed to have happened, he is off with his gun to see HWA. Well, yes, that sounds believable under those circumstances.

But what happens next. Suddenly here is Vern, becoming business manager of the Church, in a position which meant he was working day to day closely alongside his father in law. And Vern supposedly knows the history, and even HWA’s suggestion that Vern’s wife’s ‘special relationship’ could maybe continue.

What sort of ‘low life’ was Vern, to cosy up with HWA, and to continue to expose his new wife to the potential advances of her father?

Is it really creditable that this would happen. How many reading this board would have acted as Vern did, knowing the relationship that HWA had imposed on his daughter – the girl that Vern was to marry. And remember that he was not a member of the church, so HWA would have no hold over him in that way.

There are a number of other details that just do not stack up, things that even in a dysfunctional family are just not going to happen.

I found it interesting that John Robinson did not appear to endorse his father’s book.

I don’t very often go along with Dr. Bob, but on this occasion his article reads a lot more believable that the article on this blog, which is basically innuendo, and falls below Gavin’s usual high standards.

Once I thought HWA dying before the coming of "the...

2009-02-01T13:15:00.000+13:00

Once I thought HWA dying before the coming of "the kingdom" paralleled Moses being barred from the promised land; there was probably some "reason". Personally, that analogy doesn't matter to me anymore.

Can "bad" people do good things? I remember Judgment at Nurenberg when Spencer Tracy asked his hosts what good Hitler did. Autobahn, VW, etc. As Dr Peter said, Consummate politician... incompetent as a generalissimo. The fact that he liked Wagner, who was said to be antisemitic, didn't stop a Jewish friend (whose parents suffered in Auschwitz) from buying me a complete copy of Rings of the Nebelung. Learning that Aaron Copland was gay didn't change my feeling for his music.

I think that in his day HWA gave a good sermon and radio program. Whether he did certain things doesn't change that for me. But, my belief system doesn't depend on having him as part of a line of succession, as an apostle, an Elijah, a salesman, or a con man.

Interesting quote from Bob Thiel's site,"I persona...

2009-02-01T11:26:00.000+13:00

Interesting quote from Bob Thiel's site,"I personally called Garner Ted Armstrong’s office on Dec. 12, 2002 to inquire about this particular accusation. I was not able to speak with GTA directly, but a key employee of the Garner Ted Armstrong Evangelistic Association discussed it with him and got back with me.
"Through his spokesperson, GTA declined to comment except to pass on the message that:

'everything you really need to know about my father is contained within the Autobiography (of Herbert W. Armstrong).'

"Thus GTA would not stand by a statement attributed to him on this matter–so how can any believe this?"

Now I personally have heard Ted say that his father's autobiography was "two thirds fiction."
And really folks, are we going to depend on Ted for the truth here? when he even wrote about the incest problem stating(in a letter to his Dad), "I wanted to leave that family problem behind in your study" quoted in his booklet "The Origin and History of the Church of God International."
Wonder why Bob did not ask Benny Sharp? since he was there with Ted in his father's study while the accusations were flying back and forth.

Thiel's supposed rebuttal does anything but rebutt...

2009-02-01T11:24:00.000+13:00

Thiel's supposed rebuttal does anything but rebutt. You would think that anyone bringing these types of accusations about a family member would have been given a stern rebuking by other family members. It didn't happen. Thiel's own account is testimony to that.

It's the Armstrong's horrible family secret and, if it ever really came to light, especially early on, would soil the reputations of everyone involved. Dorothy put up and shut up. It's sad that nobody is defending her, just her abusive father that they worship.

""Why can't a father and son work together for the...

2009-02-01T09:36:00.000+13:00

""Why can't a father and son work together for the glory of God? That's my big question."

The Armstrongs couldn't but the Tkachs did."

So you're saying the proceeds of the sale of both campuses went to "the glory of god"?

Did "god" issue a tax receipt for that?

Gavin, you have upset the Double Doctor Minister W...

2009-02-01T09:23:00.000+13:00

Gavin, you have upset the Double Doctor Minister Wannabe Bobby Thiel!

Man is he mad at you. How dare you.

Give it to him Gavin!!!

It's just very difficult to take any investigation...

2009-02-01T09:05:00.000+13:00

It's just very difficult to take any investigations or reporting from Dr. Bob Thiel seriously. He actually believes the fabricated history of "the true church" concocted by Dugger, Dodd, Hoeh and others. He also accepts British Israelism as fact. I don't know that he has ever commented on Hislop, but he certainly has retained many of the fabricated and intellectually dishonest ideas from Hislop which were incorporated into the beliefs of the Armstrong movement.

As for our anonymous poster from Tulsa, how would a WCG member even have known the mental state of a disfellowshipped minister several decades ago? When people were disfellowshipped, they were personna non grata to all church members, and were to be shunned. There is no way an observant church member would have been permitted to remain close enough to a disfellowshipped member to have had in depth and prolonged conversations with such a person.

Perhaps the full implications of the incest history are lost on current ACOG members. When God started working with the Apostle Paul, he knocked him down and cleaned him up, first. He did not reveal His truth and purpose for Paul while Paul was still orchestrating the torture and murder of Christians. Herbert Armstrong has claimed that God was revealing the truths that He wanted restored in His church to Herbert during the exact same time period when the incest was actively taking place. That is not the way in which God works!

BB

Anon 1:50 asks:"So because someone does something ...

2009-02-01T08:38:00.000+13:00

Anon 1:50 asks:
"So because someone does something wrong ... even incredibly bad ... NOTHING they ever do is right??"

No, it doesn't mean they never did anything right. But it should be a red flag to warn you to not be quite so accepting. In other words, verify and confirm. Of course when you do that with people like Armstrong, the whole charade starts to crumble. Psychopaths succeed because people are overwhelmed by their forceful personalities and confidence. It is a common theme in religious organisations, just as it is in business, Bernie Madoff being a recent example.