Comments on Ambassador Watch: Date Line Lunacy

since the "last supper", as it's commonly called, ...

2009-04-12T16:53:00.000+12:00

since the "last supper", as it's commonly called, occured on the 14th, it had to have been the passover meal.
the next day, the 15th, was the first day of unleavened bread, a separate observance.

"The last supper is not the passover, it was the d...

2009-04-12T04:08:00.000+12:00

"The last supper is not the passover, it was the day before the passover."

Correct, and it was adapted from a similar sun-worshipping ritual from the Egyptian mystery schools devoted to the goddess Isis.

"sorta like the period of time between thanksgivin...

2009-04-12T04:05:00.000+12:00

"sorta like the period of time between thanksgiving and christmas being referred to as "christmas" today, even though it's not technically christmas."

Only the US. Halloween comes between Thanksgiving and Xmas, up here.

"Purple, did I say that?"The article you linked to...

2009-04-12T04:04:00.000+12:00

"Purple, did I say that?"

The article you linked to said that. You might want to check the provenance of your recommendations a little more closely in future.

"I agree. G-d and the Bible haven't a ghost of a chance on earth without questions like yours."

"Men create gods. That is the way it is in the world. Men create gods, and worship their creations. It would be better for the gods to worship men!" Gospel of Philip.

Happy Sabbath, SJS.

Anonymous said... hmm, then why did Jesus instruct...

2009-04-10T16:59:00.000+12:00

Anonymous said...
hmm, then why did Jesus instruct His diciples to keep the passover each year?

He didn't. The last supper is not the passover, it was the day before the passover.

"Only an orthodox Jew, who by definition does not ...

2009-04-10T16:22:00.000+12:00

"Only an orthodox Jew, who by definition does not recognize Christ as Messiah, has any need or requirement to observe those days."

hmm, then why did Jesus instruct His diciples to keep the passover each year?

"The lamb or kid was selected and tethered on the ...

2009-04-10T16:21:00.000+12:00

"The lamb or kid was selected and tethered on the 10th, slaughtered and roasted on the 14th, and consumed at the Seder on the evening of the 15th. "

well actually, the lamb was to be killed, cooked and eaten on the 14th....the daylight part of the 14th was spent spoiling the Egyptians, then Israel left at night, in the early part of the 15th, so they couldn't have been eating the lamb on the 15th..

and yes, the 14th was considered the first day of unleavened bread for the reason you give, although it wasn't technically the first day. sorta like the period of time between thanksgiving and christmas being referred to as "christmas" today, even though it's not technically christmas.

Jesus kept the passover with His diciples at the proper time, at the beginning of the 14th.
a large part of Israel kept it the next evening, on the 15th, hence the passover lambs being slain as Jesus died on the cross.
we see from reading the passover story in the OT that the Jews of that day, as today, do not keep it on the correct day. also they refer to the days of unleavened bread as "passover" today, as they did back then.
the oracles of God have been entrusted to the Jews, but that doesn't mean they understand them.

Purple, did I say that?"Creation took place in the...

2009-04-10T11:46:00.000+12:00

Purple, did I say that?

"Creation took place in the spring month of Nisan,"

If nothing existed prior to "Creation", including linear time, "the spring month of Nisan" did not exist before "Creation". Therefore, how did "Creation take place" in a particular and specific segment of time, when time did not exist?

I agree. G-d and the Bible haven't a ghost of a chance on earth without questions like yours.

I think people tend to forget that the pilgrimage ...

2009-04-10T11:30:00.000+12:00

I think people tend to forget that the pilgrimage feasts of Israel are intended to be celebrated by Israelites in Jerusalem. These would be Passover, Pentecost and Tabernacles. When an Ozzie or Kiwi is savoring a freshly roasted leg of lamb, with mint jelly, horseradish and the best of good friends, after 4 glasses of wine and a sinus-burning Hillel sandwich -- in Jerusalem, just down the road apiece from the architectural marvel of the world -- the season shouldn't feel too terribly out of kilter.

To my knowledge the only festival required of non-Israelites is Tabernacles, not even including Shmini Atseret, the 8th day of assembly.

Things feel wrong to folks in exile because they ARE wrong in exile. We don't know for certain who they are, but there's got to be a bunch of them scattered around the earth. Some of them might be contributors here, judging by the unusual Biblical interests of writers on this blog. Some of us with no knowledge at all of an Israelite heritage might just harbor enough of the Jacobite genes or inclinations to be hustled home during the days of Messiah. At that time all these things should feel just right.

"Creation took place in the spring month of Nisan,...

2009-04-10T08:58:00.000+12:00

"Creation took place in the spring month of Nisan,"

If nothing existed prior to "Creation", including linear time, "the spring month of Nisan" did not exist before "Creation". Therefore, how did "Creation take place" in a particular and specific segment of time, when time did not exist?

For all your evangelism about how Judaism is scientific SJS, the fairy tales hold together about as well as the Christian ones --- which is not very well at all.

I recommend reading anything by E. Wallis Budge instead.

"Thanks Perple for reducing everything down to an ...

2009-04-10T08:53:00.000+12:00

"Thanks Perple for reducing everything down to an ad-hominem."

If it had been an ad hominem, Gavin wouldn't have let it through, Bill.

One of the arguments Armstrong used for a passover...

2009-04-10T05:14:00.000+12:00

One of the arguments Armstrong used for a passover that was between the 13th and 14th was that Israel could not go out all night . He did not realize that the "are there not 12 hours in a day and 12 in the night" indicated that night ends at midnight!
The memorial for the church is at the beginning of the 14th when Christ was betrayed, but the passover was killed at the right time, the after noon of the 14th which is the time "between the evenings ON the 14th".
Between the 13th and 14th is not ON the 14th.
The passover of death itself was then on the 15th, midnight and after midnight they could indeed go out since there are 12 hours in day and 12 in night.

It just goes to show you that so-called "holy time...

2009-04-10T04:08:00.000+12:00

It just goes to show you that so-called "holy time" is relative. Just saying you "keep the sabbath" is not good enough for God. You MUST keep the sabbath perfectly. Not only that, if you choose to be a sabbath keeper, you must live your lives perfectly, without sin, ever.

Jesus is not going to "make up the difference" in our account with God. Jesus didn't die to take the role of the buddy system. And we certainly aren't going to "sack race it" into the kingdom with Jesus.

Thanks Perple for reducing everything down to an a...

2009-04-10T02:17:00.000+12:00

Thanks Perple for reducing everything down to an ad-hominem.

Anon 11:44, here's a link for you re. the now past...

2009-04-09T23:37:00.000+12:00

Anon 11:44, here's a link for you re. the now past anniversary of the first sunrise:
http://ohr.edu/yhiy/article.php/3858

"The ability to think critically is severely compr...

2009-04-09T20:45:00.000+12:00

"The ability to think critically is severely compromised with the poor sabbath keeper who refuses to let anything interfere with his set of "truths" from on high. Who was high at the time is debatable."

Very good, Bill, now if only you could apply that attitude towards the rest of your "holy" book, you'd be set.

Also, your attitude stinks. But it's a very very Christian attitude, I can say that without reservation.

What do Mr. and Mrs. R. Crumb do this week?

2009-04-09T16:19:00.000+12:00

What do Mr. and Mrs. R. Crumb do this week?

God rested for 24 hours?Try reading the text again...

2009-04-09T13:50:00.000+12:00

God rested for 24 hours?

Try reading the text again. He rested from "that" work, and that day shows having no end. God is still resting from that work, and it is the believer who can enter into God's rest while it is still called "Today". Read Hebrews 4. God's rest is this "sabbatismos" that the "sabbaton" was but a shadow.

PH asked:"Um. And your point is?? That was what th...

2009-04-09T12:20:00.000+12:00

PH asked:
"Um. And your point is?? That was what the church always taught, when I was in."

The point was, and still is, that all those who accept that the observation of certain days at very particular times also believe that everyone else is wrong, and are therefore in a lot of trouble. They believe that the covenant made with Israel, and no one else according to scripture, somehow applies to them also. Only an orthodox Jew, who by definition does not recognize Christ as Messiah, has any need or requirement to observe those days. Christians, OTOH, are supposed to be following a different covenant, one that requires love towards neighbour but not the observing of days. Sorry if I didn't make that clear in my previous post.

SJS re: Birchat HaChamahThe YouTube link didn't ma...

2009-04-09T11:44:00.000+12:00

SJS re: Birchat HaChamah

The YouTube link didn't make it through the Great Firewall. But China Daily online (http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/) had an article Jews offer prayers for the sun with a linking photo on the front page.

Anon 03:07, you raise an interesting point:"The pr...

2009-04-09T10:05:00.000+12:00

Anon 03:07, you raise an interesting point:

"The problem is that April 8 is passover. (well, sunset April 7 to sunset April 8). April 9 is the feast of unleavened bread. So the "eve of passover" would be April 7, (or, sunset April 6 to sunset April 7), not April 8."

I understand what you mean, but there's more.

The lamb or kid was selected and tethered on the 10th, slaughtered and roasted on the 14th, and consumed at the Seder on the evening of the 15th. For the animal to be kosher for Passover, the environment of its owner had to be free of leaven and chametz. So "Unleavened Bread," had to begin before the sacrifice of the animal. The animal itself was termed, "the Passover." One selected, tethered, slaughtered (sacrificed), roasted and ate the Passover through that whole series of events, so to single out the 14th as "The Passover" is hard to justify.

In Christianity, the Passover, or Lamb of God, is seen as a metaphor for Jesus. Paul says "Christ our Passover is sacrificed for us." One doesn't sacrifice a calendar date.

Mark uses bizarre language if he's talking about the 14th of Aviv/Nissan, being concerned about killing and eating the Passover. "And the first day of unleavened bread, when they killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?"

Today the word, "Passover," is all we have left of its original meaning. We still shun chametz, observe most of the dates and make the Seders, but without the Passover. Events between the 10th and the 14th, which once led up to the Seder, will essentially be moot until the Temple services are restored in Jerusalem. And we still observe the countdown to Shavuos (Pentecost) which is attached, by counting the omer, to the events of Passover.

So when Jews refer to Passover, we usually refer to the unleavened week, or to the first or second Passover Seder. We still rid ourselves of chametz by the 14th, but to call that "The Passover," wouldn't really fit what is left of the original lengthy series of Passover-centered events.

The "Last Supper" was no Passover Seder; that would occur on the next night. More than likely it was a traditional banquet to celebrate completion of an educational milestone, like a graduation. At such a banquet the "fast of the firstborn" was legally circumvented, which would account for Jesus' participation, both as their Teacher and as a bechor, or firstborn.

I've driven sabbatarians bonkers over this issue, ...

2009-04-09T09:22:00.000+12:00

I've driven sabbatarians bonkers over this issue, and it is interesting to note how few even understand the issue, where most just dismiss it all out of hand..." I keep the sabbath when it comes to me" is probably the most oft quoted cop-out.

Even when you try to take them through with baby steps, they stumble greatly!

"If you traveled east from Israel, say, 1000 miles, when does the sabbath begin for you in relation to Israel?

{perplexed stare, like the deer in the headlights}

"The sabbath would begin for you approximately 1 hour earlier, right?"

"-- um, yea.."

Ok, so if we keep traveling east to the US of A to about the middle, the sabbath would begin for you about 14 hours earlier than it does in Israel, right?"

"-- um, wait a minute..."

"You already agreed that for every thousand miles we go east, the sun sets about an hour earlier, right?"

"-- um, yea, but..."

"So you see, your sabbath would begin on Thursday at sunset and end on Friday at sunset. So why don't you keep the sabbath on Friday? It's just as valid as traveling west from Israel, isn't it?

" -- Buzz, click click, does not compute... does not compute... error, error..."

The ability to think critically is severely compromised with the poor sabbath keeper who refuses to let anything interfere with his set of "truths" from on high. Who was high at the time is debatable.

Bill Hohmann

A few more proof texts from the Do Away Virgin of ...

2009-04-09T05:58:00.000+12:00

A few more proof texts from the Do Away Virgin of the Bible on Date Lining.

2 Corinthians 10:13 and we in regard to the unmeasured things will not boast ourselves, but after the measure of the line that the God of measure did appoint to us -- to reach even unto you;

I'm not sure what the heck this means, even in the NIV, but I think it applies to the date line

2 Timothy 2:15 Strive diligently to present thyself approved to God, a workman that has not to be ashamed, cutting in a straight line the word of truth.

Hmmm, seems bends and twists are illegal.

Numbers 34:8 And from Mount Hor the line will go in the direction of Hamath; the farthest point of it will be at Zedad:

Could that be New Zedad? hmmmm

Joshua 16:6 The line goes out to the west at Michmethath on the north; then turning to the east to Taanath-shiloh, going past it on the east of Janoah

Ok, well maybe they don't have to be straight lines after all.

Job 38:5 Who determined its measures, if you know? Or who stretched the line on it?

Uh oh...only the Deity can do lines

Isaiah 34:11 But the pelican and the porcupine will possess it. The owl and the raven will dwell in it. He will stretch the line of confusion over it, and the plumb line of emptiness.

The original Hebrew for owl is kiwi, for pelican it is albatross and raven is a raven still. Porcupine in hebrew is the word for Wallaby.

I think these scritpure prove God's care for the lands down under. Although, Exodus 23:5 "If you see the donkey of him who hates you fallen down under..."... does make you wonder...

I don't see what all the fuss is about. The holy ...

2009-04-09T05:23:00.000+12:00

I don't see what all the fuss is about. The holy days always started for us when we walked into services, and ended when we walked out. No time line need apply.

The last couple of years, our church area even started having morning Day of At-One-Ment services so you could go home and take a nap afterward until sundown.

Just silly observances taught by people who ridiculed other's silly observances.

cool video Jack.the problem is that April 8 is pas...

2009-04-09T03:07:00.000+12:00

cool video Jack.

the problem is that April 8 is passover. (well, sunset April 7 to sunset April 8)

April 9 is the feast of unleavened bread.

so the "eve of passover" would be April 7, (or, sunset April 6 to sunset April 7), not April 8.

or one would be correct in noting that the evening of passover is the evening of April 7

IF you believe the bible, that is, when it says that the 14th of the first month is passover, the 15th is the feast of unleavened bread.