Comments on Ambassador Watch: Ron, Paul and the Anti-Den

'...Secondly, do you seriously believe the Joe jun...

2008-06-27T20:48:00.000+12:00

'...Secondly, do you seriously believe the Joe junior was the most qualified minister to take over WCG after the "untimely" death of his father? I am sure you would agree that there were other men with more years of experience and biblical knowledge than Joe?...'

Underlying most COG problems is their structure. There is no Biblical mandate for a corporate church. Success will come when the one who 'takes over' is Jesus Christ.

The New Testament pattern is for independent congregations - co-operating with one another, looking to the Scriptures as an expression of Christ's authority over them - and not to a corporate headquarters.

tommy baby said..."And I haven't even began to exa...

2008-06-27T11:44:00.000+12:00

tommy baby said..."And I haven't even began to examine the doctrinal changes, which Steve thinks are wonderful!

MY COMMENT: I said that? Well, go ahead...examine them. Please use Scriptures to proof me wrong. If you want to, we can make it a private discussion. Makes no difference to me.

Larry said...It is necessary that the record be st...

2008-06-27T03:51:00.000+12:00

Larry said...
It is necessary that the record be straight though. Herbert Armstrong was never "lord and master" and the WCG is not now, and never was a "cult".

If a man sitting in his plush mansion raking in at least 20% of his follower's gross income while his followers do without the basic necessities - and doing all the hiring and firing and making all the decisions, demands and rules and doctrinal changes and claims authority from God that he is an apostle. If that doesn't make him "lord and master", what would?

Not a cult? Ha! Do you know the definitions of a cult? Well, the WCG meets every one of them.

By the way, Herbert W. Armstrong is not "dead and gone". He is very much alive in the literature of all the CoG splinters, in the conversations of the members and in the sermons of the ministers. He still rules, even from the grave.

Richard, you are killing me!! I suspect that most ...

2008-06-27T00:53:00.000+12:00

Richard, you are killing me!! I suspect that most of the folks (if not all) that you have issues with, are dead or gone. Things do change.

And I don't think I actually called you liar. You are merely mistaken.

Larry said, "It is necessary that the record be st...

2008-06-26T21:32:00.000+12:00

Larry said, "It is necessary that the record be straight though. Herbert Armstrong was never "lord and master" and the WCG is not now, and never was a "cult". When lies and mistruths are told and retold, they often somehow take on a life of their own."

MY COMMENT - Larry, my family's Armstrong experience goes back to the early 1950s. I have one sibling that graduated from AC. I am very familar with the WCG of the 1960s -1970s.

I don't take too kindly to you calling me a liar, but HWA WAS lord and master, and the WCG IS a cult.

Richard

larry said...>>>Well, Corky, I The people (and min...

2008-06-26T20:35:00.000+12:00

larry said...

>>>Well, Corky, I The people (and ministers) that I know in the WCG right now (and I know quite a few) are invariably humble, kind, faithful, and generous as well as brave.<<<

Firstly, just as the people who post here have every right to challenge your beliefs and the behaviour of the ministers you support, you have every right to defend what you believe and the ministers you believe are doing the work of God. That said, if the ministers you know are the same ministers that were in WCG at the time of Tkach's death, then your description of them as humble and faithful, doesn't stand up to careful scrutiny. For every one of them fits the biblical description of a hireling.

Secondly, do you seriously believe the Joe junior was the most qualified minister to take over WCG after the "untimely" death of his father? I am sure you would agree that there were other men with more years of experience and biblical knowledge than Joe? If that was the case, as it actually was, then Joe's appointment could only be based on nepotism. His appointment, therefore, was no different from GTA and Billy Graham appointing their respective sons as their successors.

And I haven't even began to examine the doctrinal changes, which Steve thinks are wonderful!

>>Tom said: "I glory in being reviled"DB>>You are ...

2008-06-26T19:09:00.000+12:00

>>Tom said: "I glory in being reviled"<<

DB>>You are being reviled because you are an idiot, not because of any profound enlightenment you profess, but just because you are so pathetic.<<

Nothing you say is going to stop me from glorying in being reviled.

When all my detractors can do is resort to abuse, then it is evident they have lost the argument. Or what is more likely, they are incapable of marshaling an argument in defence of their ill conceived opinions.

Shouting abuse might impress your fan club, but it can have no impact on those who are secure in knowledge of truth, and are above the approbations of the practice of vulgar.

Larry, Cults don't publish financial statements. W...

2008-06-26T15:45:00.000+12:00

Larry,

Cults don't publish financial statements.

Where is financial disclosure and full accountability for the balance sheet, income and expense statement for the WCG? What are the WCG assets and total debts? Disaster fund balance and detailed expenditures?

What did the properties liquidate for? Should be listed and itemized on the hidden financial statements. Why such extreme, unwarranted secrecy?

How are the Tkachs contractually compensated, and for how long?

When do the church association cult bylaws get revised, as Tkach Jr. misled many to believe?

LM: It is stated in there that you control the board of directors of the church. So you can pick and choose who is going to be the board of the Worldwide Church of God. That board controls the church and its assets. As a result, effectively you control the church's assets. Is that accurate?

TKACH JR: Ah, not entirely, no. Ah, first of all, I'd mentioned that we are currently in the process of revising our bylaws so that the position I hold is elected...
December 4, 1997

You admire facts. Give us some numbers- some solid facts!

Stan Gardner
Ambassador Reports

Larry,Since you are apparently a WCG member in goo...

2008-06-26T15:02:00.000+12:00

Larry,

Since you are apparently a WCG member in good standing, could you post the WCG financial statement? This information is available only to members in good standing, of which you apparently are one so you should have no trouble getting it.

Thanks in advance!

Corky, good question. I guess I am really not sure...

2008-06-26T14:51:00.000+12:00

Corky, good question. I guess I am really not sure why I posted on this board. I suppose it is because I hate seeing truth distorted. No, I do not expect to "convert" anyone, but it is important that information be factual.

Does someone have to be dissatisfied with their church life to be here? I wasn't aware of that qualification.

It is necessary that the record be straight though. Herbert Armstrong was never "lord and master" and the WCG is not now, and never was a "cult". When lies and mistruths are told and retold, they often somehow take on a life of their own.

If I didn't already know more about the WCG than any of you, I would come away from this board believing any number of things about the Church that were not true. Shame on you for deceiving people this way.

The people (and ministers) that I know in the WCG right now (and I know quite a few) are invariably humble, kind, faithful, and generous as well as brave. They are also more knowledgeable about the scriptures than the vast majority of any seminary graduates. By suggesting that they are somehow brainwashed ignorant whackos, you are incredibly insulting.

Fortunately for all, God is quite merciful in His judgement.

larry said... Um..., OK, Corky, As I mentioned, I ...

2008-06-26T13:32:00.000+12:00

larry said...
Um..., OK, Corky, As I mentioned, I am a member of the Worldwide Church of God. The church you describe is one with which I am unfamiliar. You may need to consider the idea that your appraisal of the situation is not applicable to all.

Well, I'm familiar with the WCG as is everyone else here. If this is not the same "church", what are you doing here?

We're here talking about the WCG of which Herbert Armstrong used to be the lord and master over and all the little splits, splinters and CoGlets that always happen when a "church" throws up.

So anyway, if you're satisfied and happy with your church, life etc., why are you here? Surely you don't think for a minute that you are going to convert anyone back into one of the Armstrong cults - do you? Surely you don't think that you are going to talk us into not talking about those Armstrong cults any old way we want to, do you?

Comments heat up and get somewhat personal, yet An...

2008-06-26T12:55:00.000+12:00

Comments heat up and get somewhat personal, yet Anon answers with great restraint, civility, and tact.

purplehymnal said...

I call [everything] bullshit [since I have a limited vocabulary and know few nouns other than those having to do with smut].

We didn't "throw out the baby with the bath water". There is no baby in the bath water to start with.

[Bull., bull., bull. ....]

PurplePeopleEater,

Of course there is no baby there anymore, now that you killed it, PurpleBabyEater!

As for Tom Harpur's supposedly great education, what does it all really amount to? Tom Harpur might be educated in the so-called "classics." Oh boy, such uselessness! Tom Harpur might be educated in the ways of churches that eat ham, keep Sunday, celebrate Christmas, observe Easter, believe in the Trinity, believe in going either to heaven or to an ever burning hell when they die, etc. Wow, such ready made nonsense just poured into his head (perhaps through a funnel)! Tom Harpur might even be educated in the ways of Egypt. What a stuffed brain! But Tom Harpur is certainly NOT educated about the Bible!!! He is just full of paganism (and some would say squishy New Age nonsense), and suddenly noticed in his old age that the teachings of the Catholic and Protestant churches are the same as the paganism of Egypt. But his eyes have not yet been opened to see what the Bible teaches. The Bible teaches something completely different than what Egypt has ever had.

Come now, PurpleInfantChewer, let us reason together. Take that baby's leg out of your mouth and think for once. Is not your own great ignorance of the Bible something to be greatly ashamed of? Is not your dishonest bulldung as bad as the sin of false prophets like Gerald the runt? After all, both you and Gerald try to keep people ignorant and try to get them to end up hating God. Is the term Atheist really just a euphemism for being totally depraved, and mentally and morally bankrupt?

Now, have a nice day--but not too nice. You need to do some serious thinking for once in your miserable existence. Do not just endlessly and stupidly repeat the only noun you know.

Well, since we got soooooo faaaaar off, no one too...

2008-06-26T11:22:00.000+12:00

Well, since we got soooooo faaaaar off, no one took Denis the Menace to task. So, Gavin, can we get another go at it minus the Tom-Toms?

To Time is still short again ,Israel does not go a...

2008-06-26T10:30:00.000+12:00

To Time is still short again ,

Israel does not go around beheading people for Allah. They are a tad more civilized than those rag head religious fanatics in the middle east.

Now Larry, I to was a member for years after the change. WCG is still a cult. Look how it manages. From the top on down. Trade name, Tkach for Armstrong, its the same thing just less brutal in the way they handle people. But they do have their greedy hand in the till just like Herbie.

Ron Weinland says...June 24, 2008"It was mentioned...

2008-06-26T10:27:00.000+12:00

Ron Weinland says...

June 24, 2008

"It was mentioned in the sermon this past Sabbath..."

Sounds pretty detached from his own announcement as if he didn't give it himself or he wasn't there to hear himself give it. "It" means "I mentioned."

"that a sermon would be given on Sept. 30th (Feast of Trumpets) that would explain the 50th truth given to God’s Church in these end times."

Again, very detached. "That I would give a sermon" would be taking more responsibility for setting such a distant date. Dave Pack has a habit of saying he knows things he can't yet reveal. What a ploy. The Apostle Paul, however did the same thing saying he saw and heard things in his visions that he could not share. hmmmmm. Must be a school somewhere for "keep em on the edge of their seats."

"Since some have been pouring out their hearts to God concerning this matter,"

and calling me telling me to spit it out now or they are out of here.

"God is now mercifully granting that this sermon be given this coming Sabbath."

Sounds like another favor God is doing Ron. Didn't Ron say that he asked God to grant him some specific smiting powers reserved for some of his special enemies?

I have to say, I never got such a fast response to any prayer of mine like that! Did God appear to Ron in a dream and tell him, "Doh...Ron, we won't have a true church if you delay this until September. Let's go ahead and spill the beans this week."

larry said...In both yours and Bamboo_bends' posts...

2008-06-26T09:52:00.000+12:00

larry said...

In both yours and Bamboo_bends' posts, I sense that you do not give God credit at all.

Oh I give credit to God for giving me a ring side seat (and previews even) of the whole "reformation" and "deformation" of the WCG.

I do not blame Joe Tkach more than I do David Hulmes, Victor Kubiks, and Rod Merediths of Armstrongism.
They all are quite capable of cutting throats for power positions, although Joe was a little more open about it, the UCG folks liked to use proxies.

They all balloxed it up!

And can you imagine my face when I saw them all lie? These golden men set on the golden hills of Colorado Blvd behaved worse than the worse any member I have known. And they had such disdain for lowly members, until we stopped sending them tithes!

The membership just wanted to please God. The preachers wanted to please themselves.

Any number of ministers left or were kicked out of...

2008-06-26T09:49:00.000+12:00

Any number of ministers left or were kicked out of the Armstrong church for the very reason that they sought to actually do some good for people rather than simply lord it over the lay members.

I call bullshit.

We didn't "throw out the baby with the bath water". There is no baby in the bath water to start with.

OBBitterInvective: More likely the baby was a rotting, bloated, maggot-infested corpse.

The book called The Pagan Christ by Tom Harpur actually supports Herbert Armstrong's teaching

I call bullshit part two.

that the Catholic and Protestant churches of this world got their beliefs from paganism and NOT from the Bible.

I call bullshit part THREE. Clearly, anon here has not READ the book themselves, as the book in question states THE BIBLE comes from paganism (Egyptian paganism to be precise).

Unfortunately, Tom was so biblically illiterate

Tom Mahon, yes. Tom Harpur, well here's his (abridged) biography. Judge for yourself (I know you will LOL) if you think he's "biblically illiterate" when he:

Won several scholarships at University of Toronto including the Jarvis Scholarship in Greek and Latin; The Maurice Hutton Scholarship in Classics; The Sir William Mulock Scholarship in Classics; and the Gold Medal in Classics.

Attended Oxford University on a Rhodes Scholarship 1951-1954.

Studied theology and tutored in Greek at Wycliffe College, University of Toronto, 1954-56.

Won prizes in homiletics and Greek.

Began career as an Anglican priest at St. Margaret's-in-the-Pines, West Hill, Ontario (1957-1964).

Professor of New Testament at University of Toronto (Toronto School of Theology) from 1964 to 1971.

Fellow of the Religious Public Relations Council (USA).

Awarded The Silver Medal for Outstanding Journalism by the State of Israel in 1976.

Listed in U.S. Who's Who in Religion, Canadian Who's Who, and the most recent edition of Men of Achievement, (Cambridge, England).

Yes, clearly someone who is "biblically illiterate".

I call final bullshit.

Hi, having a slow day of massage here. Tomorrow wi...

2008-06-26T08:39:00.000+12:00

Hi, having a slow day of massage here. Tomorrow will be better. I just wanted to be the 100th comment. I thought it would be refreshing if I had nothing to say.

:)

Tom said: "I glory in being reviled"You are being ...

2008-06-26T08:27:00.000+12:00

Tom said: "I glory in being reviled"

You are being reviled because you are an idiot, not because of any profound enlightenment you profess, but just because you are so pathetic.

larry said... Bamboo_Bends, you really are bitt...

2008-06-26T05:26:00.000+12:00

larry said...

Bamboo_Bends, you really are bitter.

Don't use the B word Larry.... I'm melting Larry, call me anything but bitter.... I'm melting..... my energy is leaving me....my form an shape is disappearing as I stand... I'm melting into a puddle of Herbal bitter roots! ArrrraaaaahhhhHhhggg!

"Again, Larry, which one? New evangelical version,...

2008-06-26T05:15:00.000+12:00

"Again, Larry, which one? New evangelical version, or old Jew-wannabe version?"

Perhaps Evanjewical would be a good compromise

Again, Larry, which one? New evangelical version,...

2008-06-26T04:25:00.000+12:00

Again, Larry, which one? New evangelical version, or old Jew-wannabe version?

Um..., OK, Corky, As I mentioned, I am a member of...

2008-06-26T03:39:00.000+12:00

Um..., OK, Corky, As I mentioned, I am a member of the Worldwide Church of God. The church you describe is one with which I am unfamiliar. You may need to consider the idea that your appraisal of the situation is not applicable to all.

If Ron plays his cards right, shows proper humilit...

2008-06-26T02:48:00.000+12:00

If Ron plays his cards right, shows proper humility and sincerity, in a year, it will all be like it never happened. He'll be compared to the hopes of the early Apostles. Tons of sermon material there.

Times are funky enough to keep any "time is short" agenda alive and well, and not matter what happens..attack on Iran by Israel or US or both, Tsunami's, aspertame or bovine growth hormones, it's all prophetic.

However, if Israel gets it's ass kicked (as well it should) with no second coming...that could cause some pause for reflection!

Ron, Dave, Gerald, Rod and the whole send it in gang will do just fine. It's a good business to be in, along with selling guns and survival packs.

larry said... Thank you Corky, I have done precise...

2008-06-26T02:45:00.000+12:00

larry said...
Thank you Corky, I have done precisely that. This is why I am still in the WCG.

No you haven't, if you had been thinking for yourself you would know that God doesn't inspire men to lord it over congregations or believers or change doctrines every other day.

You seem to completely discount the possibility that God actually conveys understanding.

Mentally or physically? Or, does this "understanding" come from some other man who claims that he has understanding?

In both yours and Bamboo_bends' posts, I sense that you do not give God credit at all.

I can't speak for bamboo_bends but personally, I wouldn't give God credit for the creation of the WCG.

Because some of the people and/or ministers in the Church were imperfect (I am shocked), you assume that there is/was no understanding (and worse, no faith) there. Whatever you may think of current or former members of the Church of God with all their imperfections and frailties, they are the bravest people on this planet, bar none.

Oh? You know what I think now, do you? How many of the fruits of the spirit have you observed in the WCG? Have you observed any gifts of the spirit? I know for a fact that you haven't observed the gift of prophecy! The WCG has been 100% wrong ever since HWA predicted that Hitler would win the world war and make us all into slaves.

(psst, just between you and me, Germany is not Assyria).