Comments on Ambassador Watch: Hanging out in Plato's cave

I suddenly had a thought I presumed was burried fo...

2016-04-21T03:57:29.262+12:00

I suddenly had a thought I presumed was burried for 26 years.
"Yeast is a main component of Beer."
That gives BB a 24 hour ultimatum a cruiseship only goes that fast if Sandra Bullock is on board.

The brain is a miraculous thin indeed.

nck

BB, maybe you should think twice about waiting til...

2016-04-21T03:19:56.085+12:00

BB, maybe you should think twice about waiting till Kingdom Come to accept a beer from Ian. Here in Wisconsin, a popular polka has these lines:

"In heaven there is no beer.
That's why we drink it here!"

"I'm somewhat paranoid about stepping out...

2016-04-20T21:24:29.716+12:00

"I'm somewhat paranoid about stepping out from under the umbrella of the U.S. Constitution, and also regarding flying."

BB
I solved both issues by boarding at FT Lauderdale for an incentive cruise some 10 years ago.

If I had known then I would have usurped the beer you're passing.

I had no qualms looking at a Garifuna SDA7 church service in Guatamala at the turn of the millenium, Pelicans flying by. So one must be able to survive a visit with a "brother". I love the Caribean, their people. They have tax free also. But beware, some have tithing. :-)

nck

Ian, as I stated several weeks ago, in the nearly ...

2016-04-20T19:19:07.606+12:00

Ian, as I stated several weeks ago, in the nearly 15 years that I've been on these blogs, to my knowledge you are the first practicing minister who took the time to dialogue with us. I believe that everyone realizes even in hardness of heart that that makes you different from all the stereotypes we have held of the ministry. And, I meant what I said about the courage.

Because of the pain of the past, most ex-members cannot regard people who practice or teach any of the elements of Armstrongism neutrally, as perhaps they might regard practicing Jews. I've known even ex-ministers to face a real struggle in gaining acceptance amongst former members. You should have seen the trouble Dennis Diehl first faced for daring to conversate on one forum without signing a blanket apology. Our collective past is a powerful modifier, and there are some very strong opinions and feelings.

I appreciate your invitation to visit you in Jamaica, and I am certain from what I've read that you have a wonderful and beautiful country. Unfortunately, I'm somewhat paranoid about stepping out from under the umbrella of the U.S. Constitution, and also regarding flying. But I will take a raincheck on the beer and reggae music for when we get to meet in the Kingdom!

BB

Ian is attempting to paint me as the "big mea...

2016-04-20T09:48:57.455+12:00

Ian is attempting to paint me as the "big meanie" here. He bares his soul and evokes our sympathy. Ian is indeed superficially charming and can be very convincing. But keep in mind what he really is.

Ian Boyne is an xCG minister, still practicing his craft, actively indoctrinating others and convincing them to join. He argues his case very well. He is even trying to convince us (a very tough audience for an xCG minister).

A reading of Ian's many posts show MANY similarities to HWA. Superficial charm, grandiose claims, seemingly logical bible-based arguments. He's like mini-HWA all over again. And we all know the fruits of THAT.

HWA was not a man who had a few flaws but discovered many of God's truths and improved many lives. He was a man with a talent for advertising, i.e., convincing others, and who found great success in the religion business. He was a sociopath: he could be very convincing, but he cared not one whit for anyone but himself. He built himself a good life by ruining thousands of other lives.

HWA was not unique in this. Many in the religion business are of the same ilk.

Was Ian brave to come here and join our discussion? Should we "go easy" on him? I don't think so. He is a "wolf in sheep's clothing" who is actively recruiting members to his flock. He would love to add a few of us. I'm not reluctant to call him what he is.

Thanks for making that statement, Byker Bob, which...

2016-04-20T01:49:15.113+12:00

Thanks for making that statement, Byker Bob, which I take as not being made tongue-in-cheek.Objectively, being a part of a group that Time magazine described in March 1974 as a "clannish, bizarre...sect" does nothing for my ego.I could certainly do better than this! Just recently I was saying to my wife that it is manifestly foolish for a critic to say that I sought leadership in this weird ,obscurantist group for ulterior motives .For for the fact is the name of the group itself is an embarrassment in polite society, let alone the sordid history, so well documented ,of its founders. I am relieved that at least one critic sees that it makes no sense to ascribe motives of seeking power over people as my motivation for being a leader in Armstrongism.

Byker Bob ,you are sure you don't want to come down to Jamaica where you could listen to some cool reggae music and I buy you a beer? The invitation is out. Ian Boyne

Looking past Armstrongism for the moment, it takes...

2016-04-19T20:40:44.183+12:00

Looking past Armstrongism for the moment, it takes a lot of courage for a respected celebrity, a man of status and stature to lay himself open to this sort of thing.

BB

NB. POSTED ON BEHALF OF IAN, who has been having p...

2016-04-19T18:15:57.964+12:00

NB. POSTED ON BEHALF OF IAN, who has been having posting problems.

Gavin, this is my final post on this very awkward and embarrassing issue of my theological qualification or lack of it. I think The Skeptic's latest response and characterization of me amply justifies my original reluctance to respond to your direct question to me about my theological education. I decided to respond out of deep respect for you. I stressed how awkward this was for me and reading The Skeptic's dismissal and caricature of me reminded me that my apprehension was spot on. I am assailed for my "braggadocio"and psychoanalyzed.

Damned if I do,damned if I don't. How do I answer you about what right I have to be inveighing against relying on theological incompetents and mere Internet sources and to be encouraging people here to expose themselves to accredited scholars without engaging in "braggadocio" about my own deep exposure? I have no degree to show, so how do I demonstrate that my reading would amount to graduate level work? Well I do so at the peril of the ridicule to which I have now been predictably subjected. If I ignored your challenge, I could have avoided The Skeptic's scorn.

Why I didn't bother with a theology degree, Gavin? At the risk of now removing any shadow of a doubt about my braggadocio, self-delusion, narcissism, egocentricity etc. etc., I tell you why I never bothered to get a theology degree. Because my intellectual interests are too eclectic.

I read widely not only in theology and philosophy, but in economics,development studies, political science, sociology, psychology, international relations. As a journalist, I have to be a generalist. I am Jamaica's longest-serving columnist in the leading newspaper in the Caribbean and the host of the longest running,non-seasonal television show on the country's most popular television station. My apology for all this boasting (another similarity with that despised Armstrong).

There is no academic program I know of which would cater to my inter-disciplinary interests. Pursuing a theology degree would not suffice my intellectual interests. In a globalised environment, it is far easier for individuals like me to educate themselves outside of brick and mortar universities.

I tell you this, finally. I do a television show,too, on religion and I have interviewed people with doctorates in theology. But I assure you that Vance Stinson, now CGI overseer, who does not have a degree in theology, has a theological exposure and sophistication above many formally trained in theology. I do the reading so I can make that assessment.

For those who want to make their own an assessment of my intellectual cosmopolitanism, I invite you to read my book, available through Amazon, titled "Ideas Matter".

Ian Boyne

Belief, if we are not careful, can often overwhelm...

2016-04-19T17:35:45.825+12:00

Belief, if we are not careful, can often overwhelm or supercede any input that is available for us to read or learn, even if the new input is irrefutable. This can often happen without an affected individual even realizing it.

I am also reminded of various types of bias. Rush Limbaugh refers on a daily basis to the mainstream media as "the liberal media". And, of course, there is also a corresponding conservative media. Some reporters have made themselves salespersons for an agenda. Probably either side believes that they are accomplishing good by "reeducating" their audience from
one mindset to another. It skirts traditional boundaries in that the writers or newscasters probably see themselves as being honest, yet their bias is readily detectable to an objective thinker. The same holds true of sectarian bias.

Given the sheer number of faith groups, the ministry is probably not a profession which can be practiced with impartiality or neutrality. There is a wise synopsis of Christianity on the main page of the Painful Truth website. It is contained in the red cross-bar, and was orginally written in an article by a very good long term friend of mine, the brilliant novelist John Bowers. I believe it reflects much wisdom, and that it is potentially invaluable to all of us in our walks.

BB

Gavin ,I don't know what's happening ,but ...

2016-04-19T16:49:12.533+12:00

Gavin ,I don't know what's happening ,but I just sent another post which I am not seeing here. If like two previous ones ,this came to you please post here Ian Boyne

I'd like to ask another question about recogni...

2016-04-19T14:32:32.879+12:00

I'd like to ask another question about recognizing Truth. So, HWA developed a package of Doctrine like no other. Some have termed him the "Great sifter" who was able to cast aside the error and latch on to the truth as he read the work of others. If truly guided by God, this would be a great thing for all of us. But is it really all Truth? Just because we like the package? Just because it makes sense to us?

Other groups firmly believe that their leader did the same. Joseph Smith did for the Mormons, Ellen White did for Seventh Day Adventists, Charles Russell did for the Jehovah Witnesses. Or did they?

Well, each group claims so. And if you are not part for the group, you will be unable to realize that because the Bible is confusing for all but those called.

Ian, you know for sure that you are right because being called, you recognize the Truth. My uncle believed just as firmly as you do that he knew the Truth and tried to convert me until the day he died. The only trouble was that he was a Jehovah Witness and did not believe what you did.

How can one know who is right? You both are sure but you both could be uncalled and blinded, yet not realize it.

Which of these two churches taught the Truth? The one with better packaging?

I can remember many people in WCG that loved the idea of being "Kings and Priests". It didn't much matter whether the church taught one thing and the next week another. This church had the Truth because we were going toe be God as God is God!

Maybe I'm a fool in this area, but I cannot help but feel much less certain than you are or than my uncle had been.

-Kevin

Ian, I think it's really simple. I expect my k...

2016-04-19T14:04:58.839+12:00

Ian, I think it's really simple. I expect my kid's teacher to have a recognised, earned qualification in education. I expect my dentist to have completed a rigorous degree in dentistry. I expect my builder to have been certified and preferably be a member of the master builders association. I expect the journalist who writes for my morning newspaper to have graduated in journalism.

I congratulate you on your degree from the University of the West Indies. I can only point out, however, that it wouldn't qualify you to teach in a school classroom, perform dentistry or build a house. What it does qualify you for is to be a highly credible journalist, and I know (having read a number of your articles for the Jamaica Gleaner) that you do an outstanding job.

What it doesn't do is qualify you in any professional sense as a minister or theologian. I assume you do counselling. I hope you've done more than read a book on the subject. Not to say that you don't have a perfect right to express a view. We all do. In the world of journalism you are regarded as a professional. In contrast, I'm just a bumbling, enthusiastic amateur. Happy to concede it. Needless to add I'd be completely incompetent in dentistry, disastrous in trying to build a shed. I'd like to think I was a reasonable sort of teacher in my time (and yes, I have a B.Ed).

But without a relevant qualification in the field --- and you're hardly alone in this --- you can hardly expect to be regarded as a minister in the same professional sense as someone who has put in the hard yards. You're a talented amateur, and I'm not knocking that. Reading a lot of books and having an impressive library is brilliant but insufficient. I'd advise you to shun any high-stakes medical advice from someone with nothing more than broad reading habits as well.

Herein lies one of the big underlying issues with "Armstrongism" --- as others have pointed out long before me. Very, very few of those gentlemen who rattle their tonsils on a Saturday (excepting yourself) have any credible or up-to-date knowledge in the field. Moreover, like you, they don't see it as a problem. In fact, most of them see it as "intellectualism", and that is supposed to be something bad.

To be absolutely clear, I'm not saying that everyone holding a degree in theology is brimming with insight. But it's a minimum guarantee that they've reached a certain attested standard, are familiar with the parameters of their field, not just blowing hard. I think it's a shame that you never bothered.

Ian, I stand corrected re my "lack of formal ...

2016-04-19T13:49:36.958+12:00

Ian, I stand corrected re my "lack of formal education" assumption. Congratulations on your university degree.

Of course, millions of people on this earth have university degrees. Many even have advanced degrees. That doesn't make them (or you or me) right or wrong in their opinions.

My prior post reacted to your statement "my wide exposure to and reading in theology would put me at the post-graduate level". This statement says much about what kind of person you are. Your further statement "I can assure you, Gavin, that the VAST MAJORITY of the books I read are radically opposed to my own view" says much more about you. As does your braggadocio about having read every book about Armstrong and your further braggadocio about knowing every major liberal theologian.

Who are you trying to convince? Us or yourself? Or the "sheep" under you?

Please forgive my boorishness. I lack the finesse that comes so naturally to you.

I predict you will do well in your chosen field. You are probably already doing quite well in terms of fame, power and wealth. I predict continued success. While you will probably never achieve the level of HWA, nor of the major well-known television preachers, you appear to be the right kind of person for your role.

My heartfelt condolences go out to those ladies you recently baptised and all the others who have fallen into your net.

In the interest of accuracy, may I correct The S...

2016-04-19T12:12:35.366+12:00

In the interest of accuracy, may I correct The Skeptic's assertion that with reference to Herbert Armstrong and me, "Both lack formal educations (sic)". I graduated with distinction in mass communications from the Caribbean's premier, accredited university, the University of the West Indies. Gavin would know the rigour of the British educational system, after which the UWI is patterned. The UWI has produced persons who have held professorships at Harvard, Oxford, Cambridge, Princeton and other prestigious universities.

There is a mean-spiritedness and boorishness occasionally displayed on these blogs which is quite unnecessary, and is certainly no substitute for cerebral engagement.
I was disappointed , Gavin,(whom I exempt from this charge) that you could equate my self-study over decades---I have been reading philosophy and theology intensely since I was a teenager--- to HWA's six-month study at the Portland Public Library. And while I must confess that as a rule I look not only at people's qualifications in a field before I buy their books, but also which university they attended, I would not be so uninformed as to believe that unless someone has a degree in a particular field, he has nothing useful to say, or that his knowledge could not even surpass those certified in that field. That is a very backward, outdated notion.

I could tell you of some world-renowned intellectuals who never had university training in their fields of excellence.
Because of my own wide reading, I can read just a few pages in a work and know whether the person is well-read in that area. I know from reading this blog that Gavin has exposure to philosophy and theology beyond just from browsing the Internet or checking Wikipedia.

I recently heard someone give a talk on philosophy and while he was trained in law, not philosophy, it was clear from listening to him that he was widely read in philosophy. It is said of intellectuals, "it takes one to know one" I don't need to prove to anyone my level of knowledge in a particular field.

The foolish assumption that one who reads outside of the university context necessarily only discusses ideas with "those of a similar belief" is just that--foolish.

Gavin, reading back over my post, I saw where that statement you quoted was really misleading. When I wrote that "the prophetic failures and BI...are foreign to them", meaning Jamaican CGI members, I meant that they don't hear those kinds of prediction-addiction, date-setting sermons. I did not mean they are not aware of Armstrong's prophetic failures. Indeed, I regularly talk about his over 200 prophetic errors, but making the point that that does not disqualify his theology. They are aware of his unsanitised history, Gavin.

I can assure you, Gavin, that the VAST MAJORITY of the books I read are radically opposed to my own view. I deliberately seek out views opposed to mine. That's why I have every book written against Armstrongism, scandal-revealing and scholarly. I put out two challenges. I bet there is absolutely no one on these blogs who can mention a book or thesis on Armstrongism that I have not read. None of you, I bet, has a more extensive anti-Armstrong library than I have.

I challenge anyone here, too, to mention a liberal theologian of note whose work I am unfamiliar with. But then again, no one on these blogs would trust an Armstrongite minister to tell the truth. My naivety. Ian Boyne

Kevin wrote: "Imagine a reasonably intellige...

2016-04-19T08:12:03.948+12:00

Kevin wrote:

"Imagine a reasonably intelligent family reading the Bible together in a remote area of the United States 200 years ago...Who knows, with a family of 5, they might end up with 3 opinions...To me it almost seems like God's intent was not to be clear."

I came to the same conclusion.

Let's just generously assume that there was a veridical deity who genuinely intended to disseminate a specific message to, well, all of mankind (and that the bible's many disparate texts are not an anthology of ancient semi-pulp fiction never intended to be read together, be coherent with one another, or be taken completely out of their original, ancient, Jewish mystical contexts and radically reinterpreted into first a Roman context, followed by many, many, subsequent radical reinterpretations)...

What percentage of people that ever had the privilege of reading this tome got "the message"?

How intelligent must one be to get this message? How observant must one be? How sophisticated™ must one be?

How much special pleading must one do before concluding that the sophisticated™ ones in your tribe were the only sophisticated™ ones to receive the real intended specific message?

How many reasonably intelligent, reasonably observant people will go into perdition simply because they weren't sophisticated™ enough to be able to receive the intended specific message for themselves, and didn't have the right sophisticated™ priesthood to give them "the message"? Oh, but all of a sudden, all roads lead to Rom— er, I mean, Pasadena? (...but it's the dreaded atheists who don't like the idea of "absolute truth"?)

Heavens and hells aside, would this deity be worthy of worship? Why or why not?

Not MSG-Free. Not Gluten-Free. Not even all natu...

2016-04-19T08:04:54.978+12:00

Not MSG-Free.

Not Gluten-Free.

Not even all natural.

Not seeing much value in the product unless you're into spiritual junk food.

(It mainly puts on fat in the head.)

Sounds like Ian Boyne and HWA are of the same ilk....

2016-04-19T06:55:39.983+12:00

Sounds like Ian Boyne and HWA are of the same ilk. Both lack formal educations but have the equivalent of a doctorate. How? By reading books of their own choosing.

Now, I myself have only an MBA degree in Finance, plus some professional designations (CPA, CFA, MAI). Nothing in the religious field nor in the education field. But, with my limited educational experience, I have found that people learn best by reading both deeply and broadly, then discussing what they've taken from these books with other sharp minds from varying backgrounds and varying points of view. Reading by yourself, and discussing only with those of similar belief is of very limited benefit.

The statement "my wide exposure to and reading in theology would put me at the post-graduate level" shows extreme self-delusion and, frankly, silliness. What can be discussed with such a person?

Ian, I'm at a loss in that three different but...

2016-04-18T16:05:00.544+12:00

Ian, I'm at a loss in that three different but nearly identical emails were forwarded to my email account but only the last appears here.

I am in admiration of your reading habits, and it has always been clear to me that you are well read. I don't think that it's a substitute for a moderated course of study however for someone who claims ministerial authority. When you and I self-select our reading material we inevitably lean toward what we find agreeable. The benefit of pursuing a qualification is that we have to step outside our comfort zone and deal with ideas we'd normally not engage with. In my view ministry is a professional responsibility, and a bachelor's degree in the field (religious studies, theology) is now regarded as a minimum standard in most churches. To make the kind of plea that Herb Armstrong did after spending time in the Portland Public Library - claiming it was the equivalent of a qualification... well, sorry, not convincing.

Regarding BI, I was reacting to these comments: "These persons have never heard a sermon on BI... The prophetic failures and BI which you guys obsess over as constituting the heart of Armstrongism are foreign to them and hundreds of other members of CGI in this dynamic geographic area of Armstrongism." I take this as further evidence, if this is true, that the Jamaican church that you lead is indeed quiescent and incurious. Clearly, nobody much is doing any research beyond what you deliver up. In my Lutheran days (age 15 or thereabouts) I was well aware of the issues around Luther's antisemitism and his rage against the so-called peasant's revolt. Sanitised history is no history at all.

Your current reading list is fascinating, but I do hope you take some time out for escapist fiction and non-fiction completely outside the religious field.

On the "deliberately nebulous" side, Mor...

2016-04-18T15:55:36.348+12:00

On the "deliberately nebulous" side, Mormons and others have an interesting take on this. By way of interjection, I personally believe that God has made it all but impossible for moderners to know and keep the rituals associated with the Sinai Covenant, either through the loss of time-related specifics, or through the loss of the physical surroundings required (Temple, etc.) Having said that, a Mormon elder who was a personal friend and customer once shared with me that it is their teaching that on judgment day, God is going to explain precisely to each of us what His truth really is. We will then be asked if, now with full irrefutable knowledge, and with a lifetime of experience, we will commit to God's way.

In a sense, isn't this essentially the same presentation which people would hypothetically be given at the start of HWA's "second ressurrection"? It is never theologically sound to glean "doctrine" from the ifs of prophecy, but really there is so much human thought, error, philosophy, and ministerial malfeasance floating around, that direct revelation from God is the only way in which man could possibly be held accountable. Let's face it. The only way, citing a popular example, that most Armstrongites would ever give up British Israelism would be if Jesus Himself revealed that BI was a load of what our British friends refer to as "bollocks".

HWA did too much of a botched job, and let fly with way too many mixed messages for a merciful and perfect God to hold anyone accountable based on a WCG experience. At best, we might have a John the Baptist precursor to the real deal. And that would, logically, apply not only to the hearers of HWA's deeply flawed message, but to the hearers of everyone else's message as well!

BB

Miller, Thank you for your kind words and for the ...

2016-04-18T14:42:35.702+12:00

Miller, Thank you for your kind words and for the link.

nck, in 1995 I was told about the abuse from one of the four World Tomorrow presenters. I ignored it as I though it a convenient time to bring this up as people were choosing between remaining loyal to HWA's teachings or accepting the new direction. Between 2010-2014, I found much about it on the internet and in Robinson's book. Still, why accept something you cannot check up on? Well, the newspaper article acknowledging the 'understanding' between HWA and Ramona made me pause. This was more serious than a wild claim from a bitter former employee. Still, it wasn't enough.

Eventually, I learned of a few high ranking ministers/administrators from the 1970's that had acknowledged the abuse had occurred when asked about it. I spoke with two of the three individuals personally. These individuals were not bitter nor had they anything to gain by lying about this issue and they both confirmed that it had happened. When one of them was asked, "How did you know this really happened?", his reply was that he had heard Floyd Lochner's taped confession.

This is merely a brief answer. Perhaps it warrants a full response at some point.
-Kevin

Kevin, you are a thoughtful and articulate person,...

2016-04-18T12:20:08.505+12:00

Kevin, you are a thoughtful and articulate person, and I've enjoyed your article and comments. Some of my thoughts on the topic:http://godcannotbecontained.blogspot.com/2014/04/inspired-by-god.html?m=1

Trying to reconstruct:Always a delight to engage y...

2016-04-18T11:58:07.013+12:00

Trying to reconstruct:Always a delight to engage you,Gavin.Re your charge of sectarianism as you define it,guilty as charged.

I would hate to think that your litmus test for intellectual curiosity and the lack of quiescence is engagement on your blog and other such fora.I thought we had the monopoly on such arrogance. I take umbrage to your encroaching on our sacred space! The fact is,Jamaican Arnstrongites would probably consider that they could make better use of their time than to share my indulgence on these blogs .As I am not in the habit of commanding them how to use their time ,outside of advising that they observe sacred times, they get to decide.

I do not consider BI as inherently racist ,nor do I believe that the true church has to be error-free.Therefore, I do not hold that CGI,COGWA,or UCG can't be considered worthy of support because they have this error.I am not as obsessed with BI as you guys, Flurry, Pack and Meredith are.

Now to a more sensitive issue. I feel awkward to address this ,lest it comes across as immodest, but you forced me to.Though I do not have a theology degree, my wide exposure to and reading in theology would put me at the post-graduate level .I have wide exposure to the main areas of Old and New Testament theology and am acquainted with all the major theologians in the main areas. I have a very lucrative journalistic career which allows me to splurge on books, and I order an average of six books a week(It is hard to keep up with reading them, of course, but I am a bibliophile who ritualistically devotes every Sunday except Pentecost and feast says to reading, until two thirty on Monday morning. I also usually devote Wednesday evenings to reading .)
I read even more widely read in philosophy
On my table right now as theological works are these which came in recently :

Jesus Did Not Exist. Ralph Lataster and Richard Carrier (Carrier is one of my favorite atheists. I have all his books ,including his massive "On The Historicuty of Jesus".

Theology and the Mirror of Scripture Kevin Vanhoozer and Daniel Treier

The Enduring Authority of the Christian Scriptures. 1,200 pages, edited by Don Carson

40 Questions Abiut The Historical Jesus

Faith Alone:The Doctrine of Justification Thomas Schreiner

The Crucifixion. Fleming Ruthledge

Evidence for the Rapture... John Hart
The Sin of Certaunty. ..Peter Enns
Wrestling with God...James Colaiaco
Evangelical Exodus...Evangelical Seminaruans and Their Paths to Rome. Douglas Beaumont
The Inerrant Word...John MacArthur
God and the Gay Christian...Matthew Vines
Ian Boyne

Gavin, I wrote a lengthy response to your post and...

2016-04-18T10:52:09.235+12:00

Gavin, I wrote a lengthy response to your post and I lost it ...I could cry Ian Boyne

MSG-free? Perhaps. But Gluten-free? Might not pa...

2016-04-18T09:37:50.392+12:00

MSG-free? Perhaps.

But Gluten-free?

Might not pass the test.

I am back in my cage since Gavin is out there. I s...

2016-04-18T08:45:51.052+12:00

I am back in my cage since Gavin is out there.
I seriously thought the "it is what we do" claim would resonate with Ian.
Since HWA's philosophy centered around the "doing" instead of the studying.
It is one of the tennets what the cog has in common with Islam.
It is also my claim that the cog and islam have common roots since muhammed knew many jews and refugees from jerusalem, also the quaran clearly quotes Syriac christianity..
(But that is opening an entire new can of worms.) I just mention it because the "doing" is very armstrongite, jewish, early christian, as compared to the philophising of the church of rome.

nck