Comments on Ambassador Watch: The Women haters of Armstrongism?

Thanks Q. Actually, I knew that Jews do not go b...

2009-07-31T15:46:49.776+12:00

Thanks Q.

Actually, I knew that Jews do not go by the literal reading of the Pentateuch and therefore, there is no history of Jews stoning their unruly children.

But then, the Jews never did a lot of things written in their scripture.

If you want to make a Jew really mad, accuse the Jews of making their children pass through the fire to Marduk.

IF they take the time to explain it to you, they will tell you that it is a story about what WOULD happen IF they had done that.

Oh, I know, Christians say that the Jews did do that but Christians also used to say that the Gypsies ate Christian babies too.

No, wait, they also said the same thing about the Jews too.

What if the alleged rapist happened to be "no...

2009-07-31T06:22:59.497+12:00

What if the alleged rapist happened to be "non-Israelite"?

BB

Sorry Corky, I was forgetting you take the Bible m...

2009-07-30T22:29:34.018+12:00

Sorry Corky, I was forgetting you take the Bible more literally that a fundamental literalist.

Deut 22v28 and 29 express the same sentiments as Ex 22v16 and 17, where it shows it is the brides family that has the option for the marriage or not.

This is showing the legal situation. In practice, the wishes of the girl would be the overriding factor. She would need to be in agreement. Almost any reading of orthodox Jewish practice shows this to be the case in reality, as well as several Biblical examples.

This isn’t so very different to minors of 16 or 17 needing parental consent to get married in the England, and some states in the USA. The fact that consent is needed from the parents doesn’t imply that the minor doesn’t have a say in the proceedings. That would be the case in any normal family.

The letter of the law and the practice can often be two shades of the same thing.

In this situation the woman and her family have a ...

2009-07-30T17:51:31.864+12:00

In this situation the woman and her family have a choice if she gets married or not,.

Where does it say that?

'So here is a so called minister recommending ...

2009-07-30T01:07:18.826+12:00

'So here is a so called minister recommending that his congregation should commit what even the OT holds as a crime, with the death penalty for any man that committed such a thing."

Um. I thought the penalty was the rapist had to marry his victim?

Hi PH,

If you use the Skeptic’s Bible as your source, yes you may be given that impression – but then maybe they have a slight agenda????

The verses immediately before this example (Deut 22v25-27) show the case of rape. In that situation the penalty for the rapist is the death penalty and the woman goes free.

The verses you refer to are a little different. The words used are different. Verses 25-27 is referring to force – the verses you mention uses a different description, (KJ translation ‘lay hold’ as against ‘force’), meaning more seduced rather than forced. This is the way orthodox Jewish thought takes it.

In this situation the woman and her family have a choice if she gets married or not, following the couples ‘affair’. But the man has no choice – if the girl wants marriage, he is legally required to support her the rest of his days.

To Seamus: Don't be too hard on Ann Marie abou...

2009-07-29T09:39:54.068+12:00

To Seamus:
Don't be too hard on Ann Marie about her short man comments. While not an universal trait, it is nevertheless a common trait among short men. There is even a name for it:
"Napoleon complex is a colloquial term describing an alleged type of inferiority complex which is said to affect some people, especially men, who are short in stature. The term is also used more generally to describe people who are driven by a perceived handicap to overcompensate in other aspects of their lives. This term is also known as Napoleon syndrome,[1] Short Man syndrome,[2] , Little Man syndrome and Small Man syndrome." from Wikipedia.

In my many years of misspent youth in the cogs I have met many short mythters. Without exception they all exceeded the already horrid behaviour that was the norm amongst the elite class of the the cogs.

To Anon 07:16 July 27:
Your remarks about there being lynch mobs around AC Big Sandy is no justification for the policy. Indeed, the lynch mobs would have fallen over themselves to protect a helpless white girl from all those so-called sex hungry black men. No it wasn't that at all. My wife spent 4 years at AC Bricket Wood during those same years. The policies were so restrictive that she never left campus for four years. Just like in Big Sandy, the men were free to come and go as they pleased. Misogyny reigned then and continues in the daughter groups to this day.

"Translating the Hebrew Torah into any other ...

2009-07-29T07:23:47.252+12:00

"Translating the Hebrew Torah into any other language is akin to adding to or detracting from Holy Writ. It cannot be done accurately, at least not conveniently. The ancient text doesn't even reveal its depths to Israelis brought up in modern Hebrew. The Hebrew of the Torah is richly pregnant with meaning and unimaginably deep, far beyond what might be gleaned from the textual surface."

Muslims say the same thing about the Koran.

Funny, how the English can't say that, for their bastardized Romanized translation of a Greek copy of the Hebrew Septuagint, and in some cases, Coptic, Syriac, and Greek copies of Greek copies of Aramaic texts.

I'm sorry, what was that about "inerrant scripture"? If there is a god, s/h/it ran out of toner cartridges about two thousand years back, and it's been bad and poorly-fading facsimiles, ever since.

In short, Christianity: The bastard hillbilly cousin of the Abrahamic religions' family tree.

Not that the other two branches are any purer; for all their protestations that the Torah and the Koran are sacrosanct, both of those texts have been ratified, canonized, and subtly altered, over two thousand years of politicking, infighting, and holy wars.

In other words, don't trust anything that's written down. Not even what I'm writing here.

(Which may seem like a contradiction, but it really isn't.)

`So here is a so called minister recommending that his congregation should commit what even the OT holds as a crime, with the death penalty for any man that committed such a thing."

Um. I thought the penalty was the rapist had to marry his victim?

Christianity in action?"

Pretty much, yep.

Lake of Fire Church of God said... To quote our P...

2009-07-28T21:55:37.806+12:00

Lake of Fire Church of God said...
To quote our Pastor at the Baltimore, Maryland WCG congregation in a 1970s sermon (Note: he was actually a “preaching elder” for those conscious of WCG ministerial corporate rank):

“How do you handle a rebellious wife? You rape her!”

What sort of scum, excuse for a human being, would actually say something like that? Even in that era did no one challenge this?

Was this his recommended way for obtaining a wife’s respect? Did he practice this with his own wife? Had it not occurred to him that respect is earned?

So here is a so called minister recommending that his congregation should commit what even the OT holds as a crime, with the death penalty for any man that committed such a thing.

Christianity in action?

Skeptical Observer said, "It's interestin...

2009-07-28T08:54:47.290+12:00

Skeptical Observer said, "It's interesting to see the nearly studied avoidance in this forum of the 300+ negative references to women in the Bible.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/women/long.html

Yes, I know there are some positive allusions to women as well. The Bible can prove many things given the widely differing interpretations.

MY COMMENT - What next? Is someone going to come along and say the Bible isn't one third prophecy with 90% yet to be fulfilled?

Richard

Does the obvious mysogyny of the WCG past still ex...

2009-07-28T07:29:36.726+12:00

Does the obvious mysogyny of the WCG past still exist in some or many corners of the COGs? Of course.

From my personal perspective and experience ... yes, unfortunately there are a tiny handful of COG-related women who have felt empowered do anything on even the very minor level I have been able to accomplish. I've had a website that can't compete with Ambassador Watch for traffic :-) but I've had over a half million visitors. The site even garnered a mention a couple of years back by Cal Thomas, who is a well known media commentator and one of the most widely published newspaper commentators in the world. (He was looking on the web for info on groups that are big in End Time Prophecy pontifications, and came across my Field Guide. His citation of it in his international print and online column one day led to a big leap in Field Guide site visitors for a few days!)
I've been giving presentations(dubbed "seminars" ... don't dare call 'em "sermons" ;-) ) for over a decade at the Feast of Tabernacles and other COG venues, attended by both men and women. (I've even had some people say that my seminars are one of the primary reasons they chose a particular FOT site.)
I've been invited all over the US to give similar presentations at local and regional church gatherings for over a decade.
I've been an editor and writer for a number of COG publications, as well as written one book of my own and co-authored two books with Ron Dart.

So are my efforts applauded in all circles? Of course not. Even though I get along with many, many men (and am most often invited by men to speak to groups) ... it is obvious to me that I am viewed by certain men in COG leadership positions as a threat. And evidently particularly because of my gender.
I could understand if I were in their own congregation or denomination ... if so, they could bash me over the head with scriptures and make me shut up through sheer corporate authority. But you'd think what I do "outside" the confines of a particular group would have no impact or interest at all to the leaders within the group. I'm certainly no threat to their constituency, since none of their loyal members will ever be going to a place where I am speaking!
Yet some time back I got an email from some fellow who was getting tapes from Rod M. He had written to me to apologize for the beating my rep had taken on a recent Rod tape. Now mind you, I've never had anything at all to do with Rod Meredith. I've never met him, never been part of any group he was involved with since the WCG. Nor have I corresponded with him.
But he evidently named me by name in a sneering way on this particular tape that went out to his constituency around the world.
The fellow that wrote to me said that Rod had ranted something along the lines of "There is this woman out there named Pam Dewey who is trying to start a revival in the Churches of God!!"
Dearie me. Wouldn't want to wake the dead or comatose. What an insidious idea.
I guess I just found it amazing that such a man would find some little grandmother living in Podunk he'd never even met to be that big a threat. Only thing I can think of is that my very existence somehow threatened his masculinity.
Such as it is.

It's interesting to see the nearly studied avo...

2009-07-28T00:55:19.523+12:00

It's interesting to see the nearly studied avoidance in this forum of the 300+ negative references to women in the Bible.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/women/long.html

Yes, I know there are some positive allusions to women as well. The Bible can prove many things given the widely differing interpretations.

!

2009-07-27T23:22:01.748+12:00

Skeptic, first of all, thanks for your skepticism....

2009-07-27T22:47:28.419+12:00

Skeptic, first of all, thanks for your skepticism. The Hebrew Torah in English is at best anemic, and at worst bordering on blasphemy, considering the absurd leaps of faith one is expected to make through acceptance of the Creation story in English.

Here are a couple references from the internet, but not to interfere with healthy skepticism: http://www.balashon.com/2008/10/ish-and-isha.html, and http://www.chabad.org/theJewishWoman/article_cdo/aid/592564/jewish/The-Contributing-Factor.htm.

Translating the Hebrew Torah into any other language is akin to adding to or detracting from Holy Writ. It cannot be done accurately, at least not conveniently. The ancient text doesn't even reveal its depths to Israelis brought up in modern Hebrew. The Hebrew of the Torah is richly pregnant with meaning and unimaginably deep, far beyond what might be gleaned from the textual surface.

The Ramban commentary is excellent, published by Shilo. The ArtScroll publication omits significant parts of the text in English, but allows them in Hebrew. Shilo is probably the better choice for those of us who rely heavily on English. For an insight into some of the depth of Hebrew Genesis, "In the Beginning - The Bible Unauthorized" by H. Moose, published by Thirty Seven Books, 2001, is excellent, if a little rough around the edges for anyone accustomed to the matchless prose of the KJV.

Anne Marie said "I'll never forget the S...

2009-07-27T13:44:59.665+12:00

Anne Marie said

"I'll never forget the Sabbath that it was announced that, effective immediately, the female choir directors were being removed from their positions"

Yes, I remember very clearly when that happened in the Philadelphia, PA church. The Philadelphia church had a very good music director, who actually had professional training and experience, Anna Jones. Anna's husband, David Jones, who was not a member but was a professional tenor, sang in the choir to help his wife (and the church).

Although I'm sure the pastor, Mr. Perkins, didn't want to do it, in the early 80's he was forced to remove Anna as choir director. She was replaced by a deacon who did his best but knew very little about music or conducting. This was quite a blow to Anna and to all of us who cared about music. We were stunned. It was ridiculous. Anna kept a good attitude and sang in the choir. As one would expect, with professional leadership replaced by amateur leadership, the choir quickly went downhill.

The Skeptic

Smiling Jack said "In the Creation story, he...

2009-07-27T13:37:11.347+12:00

Smiling Jack said

"In the Creation story, helpmeet doesn't mean slave or servant; it describes woman as equal but opposite, programmed to resist man when he's unworthy, or cooperate when he's got himself properly together. Man is ish; woman is isha. One is masculine, the other is feminine. Both are ish, but with differences of personality and job description plus overlap. The woman is given an extra measure of understanding, and we often hear of a woman's intuition that makes her indispensible to her family, or wherever else her gifts may take her."

Jack the creation story in my bible versions doesn't say any of this? Please advise what version includes this.

Thanks,
The Skeptic

Ah yes,the women in the church were treated differ...

2009-07-27T12:20:47.328+12:00

Ah yes,the women in the church were treated differently as one Kiwi deaconess of Worldwide can testify.

Nevertheless, some of the ministers' wives could be what we today would call...er, assertive.I hesitate to use the full monty here.

It truly was the typical contradiction,quite adequately summed up by Christ, " a house divided against itself cannot stand".

Amen,oops should that be "persons" to that.

Jorgheinz

At AC in Big Sandy in mid 1960s...... this comment...

2009-07-27T07:16:34.314+12:00

At AC in Big Sandy in mid 1960s...... this comment was followed with what was required of women in Big Sandy at the time. At that time in East Texas, they still had lynch mobs. Racial issues were definately tense there. And there were none other than whites on campus.

I remember GTA once saying that the passage in Act...

2009-07-27T01:35:45.587+12:00

I remember GTA once saying that the passage in Acts that talks about Phillip's daughters being prophetesses was misunderstood. He said the "prophet" part referred to Phillip, not his daughters. Quite a stretch.

I attended a CGI congregation for a few years where I never felt comfortable. With all the talk of not working on the Sabbath, I could never understand why I was expected to set up and clean up after potluck every week. Isn't doing a ton of dishes work?

The women never gathered to discuss Scripture after services. All they ever talked about was housework. I wanted to discuss the Bible and current events. When I tried to join a small knot of men who were having such a discussion, they actually turned their backs on me and physically shut me out.

Needless to say, I have long since left organized religion and study and worship in my home. I even use (gasp!) non-Dwight Armstrong music.

Freedom is a beautiful thing.

A few comments regarding women being treated like ...

2009-07-27T01:26:15.599+12:00

A few comments regarding women being treated like crap in the wcg cult:

At AC in Big Sandy in mid 1960s, each female student had to provide information on a log sheet kept in each dormitory or with the booth monitor if she was going off campus. Permission had to be obtained first to even go off campus at night. The log sheet included time out, destination, reason for going off campus, and time back in. On week nights, all female students had to be in the dorm by 10:00 and in bed with lights out by 10:30. AFAIK, the male students had no such rules at all. The rule of "in bed by 10:30 pm was so that future wives would be healthy and strong and able to bear healthy children to the ministerial material that some were destined to marry. IOW, it was part of a breeding plan for healthy stock.

There are many more examples, but this is one of the more blatant ones.

Others have already written how women were not to submit Bible questions on their own but should ask their husbands first, or have the husband submit the question.

In the local church area, I'll never forget the Sabbath that it was announced that, effective immediately, the female choir directors were being removed from their positions because women were not to teach or be over men. In our particular area, this was interpreted to include even the children's choir.

AnnMarie95

Third Witness said: "PS: Ever notice that Wis...

2009-07-27T00:02:59.720+12:00

Third Witness said: "PS: Ever notice that Wisdom in the Bible is personified as a woman?"

Not just wisdom, but about every positive force mentioned in the Bible is feminine, whether Ruach (Spirit), Shechinah (God's feminine presence), you name it. The Kabbalists say that if man cannot recognize the motherhood of God, we will destroy ourselves. Fatherhood, even at the God level, isn't enough. Almost every major influence on Moses was female, from his mother to his sister, from Pharaoh's daughter to his wife -- to the gift of Torah that God gave the world through him.

In the Creation story, helpmeet doesn't mean slave or servant; it describes woman as equal but opposite, programmed to resist man when he's unworthy, or cooperate when he's got himself properly together. Man is ish; woman is isha. One is masculine, the other is feminine. Both are ish, but with differences of personality and job description plus overlap. The woman is given an extra measure of understanding, and we often hear of a woman's intuition that makes her indispensible to her family, or wherever else her gifts may take her.

When a husband is the mensch he ought to be, his wife and he should find themselves comfortable in their complementary roles. Let apes beat their chests to prove dominance.

As a single woman who came into the WCG at age 28,...

2009-07-26T12:14:10.299+12:00

As a single woman who came into the WCG at age 28, I was haunted and tormented for the 13 years of my membership that "something just isn't right" with the whole thing. But nstead of assuming a more intelligent approach of simply walking away from the church, I desperately kept trying to make the square peg fit in the proverbial round hole. The whole WCG experience was a very cruel experiment.

But I am beginning to understand why it was so easy to fall victim to the false teachings and invisible chains of HWA and his paid ministers. Time helps put things in perspective.

An excellent book I have recently read is "Predictably Irrational" by Dan Ariely.

My wife always lets me think I am in charge.

2009-07-26T10:02:05.399+12:00

My wife always lets me think I am in charge.

"The particular question was would the people...

2009-07-26T09:50:40.146+12:00

"The particular question was would the people who had to face Satan at the end of the millenium, as those in the millenium did not, be «eligble» for a better reward?"

Eh? I thought Satan and the Beast were "thrown into the abyss" before the GWTJ? Or are you referring to something else, Anon 7:37?

Funny you should ask this … Just last Sabbath my d...

2009-07-26T07:37:30.977+12:00

Funny you should ask this … Just last Sabbath my daughter attended UCG in Jackson Hole, WY, where Mr. Mark Mickelson spoke--he was there because of Challenger Camp.

Her comments to me were, «had I ever noticed how the ministers had a different demeanor when speaking to women--they moved in close, looked down and treated them softly, as if they might break, but not that they could be strong.» As she looked back in here mind's eye, she could actually see the ministers of her acquaintance doing so down through the years.

As a divorced woman, a single mom, I was not even qualified enough to wait tables at pot lucks.

And one minister said in Bible Study, after I had submitted my question on the approved form, that I should not be asking questions that couldn't be answered--I should wait until I had a husband to study out such questions for me. The particular question was would the people who had to face Satan at the end of the millenium, as those in the millenium did not, be «eligble» for a better reward?

The Skeptic's bible study question procedure i...

2009-07-26T01:42:12.810+12:00

The Skeptic's bible study question procedure is correct, but this was never a change made in any of my congregations; that was the SOP.