Comments on Ambassador Watch: The Old Gray Hymnal

I repeat again, Larry, are you SURE you're a membe...

2008-12-08T13:10:00.000+13:00

I repeat again, Larry, are you SURE you're a member of the "new and improved" WCG? Because your comments come straight from 1985.......Are you broadcasting from the parallel universe I grew up in? I think so!

PH, Penticton was a wonderful Feast site. I agree....

2008-12-08T05:50:00.000+13:00

PH, Penticton was a wonderful Feast site. I agree. Canadians are alot of fun. But, nothing compares to a Feast in Jerusalem.

"By the time the Seattle congregations were assign...

2008-12-07T16:46:00.000+13:00

"By the time the Seattle congregations were assigned to Penticton, I think we were in the purple hymnals."

Off-topic, I know, but I just wanted to say, Penticton? Best Feast site ever. :-)

LOL! He may not accept non-Levitical comments, but...

2008-12-07T08:07:00.000+13:00

LOL! He may not accept non-Levitical comments, but Johnston hasn't figured out how to disable the "Links to this post" feature. (I didn't realize that till after I wrote the post on ISA, to be honest with you.)

ROFL. Wonder how long it will take him to figure out how to disable it??

"It's a good thing...right?"Neither good nor bad, ...

2008-12-07T05:02:00.000+13:00

"It's a good thing...right?"

Neither good nor bad, it was how we interpreted the words that was slightly out of whack.

Burgers: I quite agree. The Bible Hymnal was a ser...

2008-12-07T02:09:00.000+13:00

Burgers: I quite agree. The Bible Hymnal was a serious attempt to provide a group of sincere believers with words to sing that were biblically based – without the addition of other concepts that they didn’t believe were true. A thoroughly laudable objective. Starting from scratch with new tunes was also beneficial in that it avoided the risk of importing a lot of “baggage” (religious or otherwise) from the past. HWA used to say he could focus either on the tune or on the words but not on both at the same time. However, for many people, simply hearing a familiar tune will automatically trigger memories of the words that went with it. So, from that point of view, it probably made sense to include as many new compositions as possible.

On the other hand, although the gray hymnal was before my time, a German version was still in use in the late 70s and early 80s – and I must admit I always thought it was better and more varied than the later purple editions. (As an added bonus, the literary quality of some of the German translations was an improvement on the original, but that wasn’t the main reason.)

When I saw advance copies of some of the “traditional” hymns that were going to be included in the new 1993 WCG Hymnal, though, I was moved to tears. Rather like the minister who used to carry a photocopy of Galatians from the Ferrar Fenton translation around in his briefcase (but there the analogy ends!), I had been carrying photocopies of some of those hymns around (and sometimes using them at choir practices) for years.

For the record, the 1993 Hymnal was not exactly “post-reform”: among the new compositions included were: “Remember the Sabbath Day to Keep it Holy” and “Let Us Keep the Feast”. It was a worthy successor to the Bible Hymnal – and far and away the best of the lot, as far as I am concerned.

The Irish government is planning to change from dr...

2008-12-07T01:46:00.000+13:00

The Irish government is planning to change from driving on the left to the mainland Europe standard, the right. This week all public transport will change over, including taxis. Next week all private vehicles.

Speaking of hymns, I appreciate the fact many are ...

2008-12-06T16:47:00.000+13:00

Speaking of hymns, I appreciate the fact many are based directly on Biblical psalms. It's nice to sing a selection like "The Heavens God's Glory Do Declare" and then later open up the Psalms and see how very close the wording is.

It's a good thing...right?

Before the Harleys I was into Brit bikes, bigtime....

2008-12-06T12:06:00.000+13:00

Before the Harleys I was into Brit bikes, bigtime. Some had right foot shift, and others had left. And, I owned them concurrently, so had to remember which bike I was on at any given time. I learned to give preferential treatment to my front brake, believe me. Obviously stepping on the wrong pedal would get you into beaucoup trouble, fast!

One thing my Trident (right shifter) was good for, though. While convalescing from an operation on my left foot, I could still ride it quite effectively. My doctor was not amused!

BB

"Did Not "Glorious Things Of Thee Are Spoken" have...

2008-12-06T03:11:00.000+13:00

"Did Not "Glorious Things Of Thee Are Spoken" have the same tune as "Deutschland Über Alles"? "

Absolutely; the music was actually composed by the classical period master, Franz Josef Haydn, back in the 1700s. Not sure how he, a presumbaly loyal citizen of Imperial Austria, and patronized by the nobility of that realm, would have appreciated Nazi Germany's goose-step appropriation of his music with patriotic German lyrics attached!

On the subject of railway/railroads: all kidding about American spelling rebellions aside (although it's interesting that our North American buddies across our northern border, good subjects of the Crown, did NOT change their spellings as we did), since steam-powered traction engines were not invented (someone correct me if I'm wrong, please) until the early 19th century, this post-dates the colonial and revolutionary times. "Railroad" in America might just have been an organic term.

Interesting to note, too, that whereas Americans almost always use the term "anyway", many Brits (ncluding my wife's brothers) will say "any road up". Those of you in NZ and Oz: do you use that term as well?

Bammboo Bends, I will wade into this debate...ging...

2008-12-06T02:46:00.000+13:00

Bammboo Bends, I will wade into this debate...gingerly. Having driven in both North America and the UK and Ireland, I have an opinion about the left-right controversy. Driving on the right side is easier, but for some reason the left side is more fun. The real issue is the one you mentioned, the stick shift. Thankfully, when I was suffering from jet lag and daring enough to face oncoming lories on narrow backroads, I had an automatic.

At least the pedals are the same.

Questeruk said... I always thought the change o...

2008-12-05T19:01:00.000+13:00

Questeruk said...

I always thought the change of spelling in the US was all part of the rebellion!

After for some strange reason not wanting to be under the authority of good King George lots of things changed over the pond.

Railways became railroads. Driving switched from the correct left hand side (obviously done so you would meet your oncoming adversary with your sword in your right hand) to the strange idea of driving on the right.

A lot of design issues have their roots in history. The standard railway gauge (width of track) in Britain and N. America owes its width to width of carriage wheels and carriages produced in England.

Spain came up with its extra wide and narrow gauge rails to keep French and Germans from using the rails to invade their country. Trains coming in from France have to change wheel carriages upon entry to Spain.

Those carriage wheels owed their widths to the ruts in European road created by Roman chariots over the centuries. If you made a carriage a different width, the roads would tear up the carriage.

Its also no accident automobiles have wheel widths roughly that of a chariot, given that they too descend from carriages, and were once known as horseless carriages.

Christian customs, hymns, beliefs have similar curious paths in history, they never just appear out of a vacuum fully formed.

Perhaps the difference in driving sides owes more to America early use of guns, not having a long sword tradition? A gun shoots from either side of the road

Its also easier for a right handed person to shift a stiff transmission with the right hand.

Wow. Who knew that George Geis could be so cool a...

2008-12-05T17:39:00.000+13:00

Wow. Who knew that George Geis could be so cool as to play a boogie woogie version of a hymn?

Guess it just goes to show that you can't ever really know all the dimensions of another's personality!

BB

I remember quite distinctly that when Joe Sr. gave...

2008-12-05T16:54:00.000+13:00

I remember quite distinctly that when Joe Sr. gave his infamous sermon at the end of 1994 one of the songs in the opening 3 was "Stand Up for Jesus."

Also before the 1993 hymnal, nearly every week the middle hymn in Pas. Aud. P.M. was "Glorious Things of Thee are Spoken" because Tkach Sr. liked it before he came out to do announcements. Neotherm's comment regarding this hymn was particularly interesting to me....

Some years ago a song leader who was of the super ...

2008-12-05T16:26:00.000+13:00

Some years ago a song leader who was of the super deacon variety stopped in the middle of a hymn and berated the pianist for playing too fast. He was a bloke with a strong independent streak and proceded to play the rest of the hymn at the most unbelievably slow speed leaving the s/leader floundering and the congregation falling about laughing. The only reason he wasn't thrown out that day was that the Minister really agreed (I think) with what he did. Really took the p*ss out of a self righteous bloward. mOne of the funniest things I have ever seen.
R

Did Not "Glorious Things Of Thee Are Spoken" have ...

2008-12-05T13:32:00.000+13:00

Did Not "Glorious Things Of Thee Are Spoken" have the same tune as "Deutschland Über Alles"?

I suppose it was appropriate for those days..."Ach, Assyria,The Rod of My Anger"

I daresay Herr Flurry keeps this on his list of approved hymns.

We have been given to understand that Herr Flurry drinks these days from only Steuber crystal.

Cheers,

Jorgheinz

"In WCG, old and new, we found ourselves singing a...

2008-12-05T13:20:00.000+13:00

"In WCG, old and new, we found ourselves singing and leading others in songs that made us say things that weren't true or encouraging to the spirit."

The Lord Eternal Reigns

The Lord Eternal reigns! Let us rejoice! Let all the multitudes of earth be glad! Dark clouds surround him and fire burns his foes. Like wax the mountains melt at his return.

His lightnings bare the earth, men see and shake! His high authority heavens proclaim! All those who idols serve will be ashamed! Judah rejoices and Zion is glad!

Our God is far above all other gods! He is exalted above all the earth! He will preserve His saints; those who love Him. Rejoice you righteous and giv thanks to God!

"Self-righteous" was more like it.

Lord Teach Me That I May Know

Lord, teach me that I may know of the way where I should go; For to Thee I lift my soul, set me free from all my foes.

Unto Thee I flee to hide me, teach me now Thy will to do; For Thou Eternal, art my God. Lead me by Thy spirit good!

Bring my soul from trouble, and for Thy Name’s sake quicken me; Lead me to the land of refuge, and for Thy mercy’s sake

Cut off all my foes, destroy them, they which do afflict my soul; O Thou Eternal, righteous God; for I am Thy servant, Lord.

Enough negative harping, here are my favourites from the old purple hymnal:

For Even From My Youth O God

For even from my youth, O God, by Thee have I been taught; And hitherto I have declared, the wonders Thou hast wrought. And now O God, forsake me not when I am old and gray; Till I proclaim Thy wondrous deeds to this and every age.

Thy perfect righteousness, O God, the heaven’s height exceeds; O God, who is like Thee, who has performed such mighty deeds? Thou who hast shown me trials sore and great adversities; Will quicken me again and bring me from the depths of earth.

My greatness and my power Thou will increase and far extend; Against all grief on every side to me will comfort send. And I will also praise Thy truth, O God, with psaltery; Thou Holy One of Israel, with harp I’ll sing to Thee.

Our God is Good and Upright

Our God is good and upright; the way He’ll sinners show. The meek in judgement, He will guide, and make His paths to know. The whole paths of the Lord are truth and mercy sure. To those that keep His covenant and testimonies pure.

Now, for Thine own Name’s sake, O Lord, I thee entreat To pardon mine iniquity, for it is very great. What man is he that fears the Lord and doth Him serve? Him shall He teach of His own way, the way that he should choose.

His soul shall dwell at ease; and his posterity shall flourish still, and of the earth inheritors shall be. With those that fear Him is the secret of the Lord; The knowledge of His covenant He will to them afford.

O That Men Would Praise Their God

O that men would praise their God, For all His goodness and all His works! For he fills the hungry soul and they who are thirsty He satisfies. Some are bound in darkness and chains, For their rebellion against the Most High.

O that men would praise their God, For all His goodness and all His love. He has opened the prisons wide and saved men from death where they lay enslaved; In their trouble they cried to Him, And with His word He delivered their lives.

O that men would praise their God, For all He does for the sons of men. O that they would give thanks to Him, With shouts of joy and with songs of praise! Some crossed o'er the stormy seas; They see the wonders of God in the deep.

They Are Blest Who Are Forgiven

They are blest who are forgiven, To whom God imputes no sin; Who go to the Eternal, And confess to Him their sins. Whose iniquities are covered, Whom the Lord does instruct! Saying I will direct you, In the way that you should go!

Many sorrows have the wicked, Who know not the way of God. Be not as mules or horses, Which are held, by bridles strong; But be glad in the Eternal, And rejoice all you just; Shout for joy all you upright; In whose spirit is no guile.

Day and night God’s hand was on me, And I groaned till I confessed.
My sins I laid before Him; Quickly He forgave them all; Every godly one shall pray thus, While the Lord may be found; So be glad all you upright; All you righteous, shout for joy!

Well, this has been a lovely little singalong. Bet you won't find any WCG congregation singing those ones, nowadays.

I well remember the song-leaders in Auckland who e...

2008-12-05T10:59:00.000+13:00

I well remember the song-leaders in Auckland who enthusiastically thrashed the air whilst we peons,the flock, tried to keep in time with their flailing arms.

We were told to "make a joyful noise"; harmonistic dissonance.

Ah,yes,the old hymnals.No blasphemous "Protestant" hymns for us.

"By the Ribbers of Babylon" some of us irreverently used to sing,especially when Boney M came out with their version.(My forbears passed through the Southern USA on their way to NZ; in fact,some were born there,so the music from that part of the world holds some meaning.)

Having been to the Methodist Church in my formative years,I then,and now,revert to some of the Wesleyan hymns,such as "Immortal Invisible", "Oh for a Thousand Tongues To Sing"....grand music.

Dwight Armstrong,was, I believe,given very little time in which to put the original grey book together...he did pretty well considering..not every one could be a cracker.

I was always amused when we sang "America The Beautiful"...."Oh Israel, Oh Israel,God shed his grace on thee". Or for special music,Jack Langford sang Frank Sinatra's song as " I Did It The Right Way", in accordance with ministerial wishes,oops,instructions....
pompous,pretentious.This is really cringe material.

Seamus

I say old chaps,Does it matter how we spell gray/g...

2008-12-05T10:12:00.000+13:00

I say old chaps,Does it matter how we spell gray/grey?

We colonials,descended from the great and glorious tribe of Ephraim,are a little more tolerant perhaps than those who remain in Britannia.

I do remember that Kiwi students at Ambassador were marked down for their spelling by punk-tilious Yank "profs" and lecherers.

Jorgheinz

God created the herbs."Glorious Things Of Thee Are...

2008-12-05T10:05:00.000+13:00

God created the herbs.

"Glorious Things Of Thee Are Smoken".

Need I say more

Seamus

Was the OLD HUNDRETH in the Purple Hymnal, "All Pe...

2008-12-05T10:01:00.000+13:00

Was the OLD HUNDRETH in the Purple Hymnal, "All People That On Earth Do Smell"?.

Remember the early days when suits were worn even for Summer services.
Sweat,perspire,glow.

Jorgheinz

Knowing A.V., the editor of the 1972 ed. purple hy...

2008-12-05T09:46:00.000+13:00

Knowing A.V., the editor of the 1972 ed. purple hymnal, I am confident that the adding Dwight Armstrong's hymns and deleting traditional ones was not done as part of a thought-police move.

It was done out of simple expediency to get the project done in time for use at the F of T.

Dwight's material needed no vetting or inside-the-organization advocate, as would each traditional hymn selected.

The rush to publication, he said, was the reason for the errors that were corrected a couple of years later.

"I remember hearing George Geis play a driving, bo...

2008-12-05T06:44:00.000+13:00

"I remember hearing George Geis play a driving, boogie version of "Standing on the Promises" one Friday night down in the basement of Manor Del Mar in Pasadena."

Sounds like what I used to do sometimes on the baby grand in the student center at Pasadena. Usually, it would be one of the non-orthodox Protestant hymns that we didn't actually sing. The one I most remember that I bluesed-swung-rocked-up was "In The Garden". Just imagine in your mental ears hearing the music to "And he walks with me, and he talks with me" etc. played to boogied, sycnopated 8/8 time! Makes me wanna dance!

Armstrongism was bizarre and exhaustively so. Eve...

2008-12-05T05:31:00.000+13:00

Armstrongism was bizarre and exhaustively so. Even the hymnal can be analyzed for organizational significance.

I recall being told be a church member back in the late Sixties that the song "Glorious Things of Thee are Spoken" was not to be sung often. There was a fear that it would stir up the German element in the congregation. Like maybe they would start goose-stepping if they heard this tune too mcuh.

-- Neo

"Even the “I survived Armstrongism” blog has allow...

2008-12-05T04:13:00.000+13:00

"Even the “I survived Armstrongism” blog has allowed through my comments in full every time, which is nice."

Purple Hymnal said...

“And so are you, which is why your comments are allowed in full. :-)”

Wow – Thanks Aggie – my mummy (British spelling!) always told me to play nicely!