Comments on Ambassador Watch: Hillsong - Pt. 1

http://www.smh.com.au/national/hillsong-on-a-missi...

2009-05-25T23:06:37.219+12:00

http://www.smh.com.au/national/hillsong-on-a-mission-to-spread-the-word-north-20090510-az7o.html?page=-1

The latest expansion of Hillsong. Also check out http://www.rickross.com/groups/hillsong.html for more articles about hillsong, and their growing influence -- some scary stuff here.

It's funny that all you "truly religous people" si...

2008-07-11T00:29:00.000+12:00

It's funny that all you "truly religous people" sit around and write blogs about how bad churches are but do NOTHING to change it. You complain about how a church like Hillsong is money hungry when they put out millions of dollars into missions every year and truly have a heart for justice.

So go ahead and do nothing. Keep writing your blogs.

Tom saith:Sadly, those of you who were associated ...

2007-11-22T01:33:00.000+13:00

Tom saith:

Sadly, those of you who were associated with WCG and have now fallen from grace, were never truly converted. You endured for a while, but when sun got hot you whither away, like the seed that falls on stony ground, and doesn't have any deep roots.

Or perhaps, unlike you, we knew a bad situation when we saw one and chose to get out. And if we were never "converted" then not to worry, according to your own Armstrongology. We get another shot at it down the road.

Your problem is, much as you deny you are an Armstrongite, you are still obviously trapped in his nutty theology. Which means you were never called to anything at all. The "Sayings of the Tooth Fairy" has more substance than your religious beliefs do.

>>>If this is our old hyper-Armstrongist friend To...

2007-11-21T21:13:00.000+13:00

>>>If this is our old hyper-Armstrongist friend Tom, it's certainly surprising to find him quoting from the Apocalypse of Peter.<<<

The book of Enoch is not part of the bible, but Jude quotes from it thus: "And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints, to execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their HARD speeches which ungodly sinners have SPOKEN against him."

There might be a faint degree of redemption for the cabal and ranting Douglas, in particular, if he notes Jude's warning before it is too late.

Tom quoted: And alongside of these were other men ...

2007-11-20T17:48:00.000+13:00

Tom quoted: And alongside of these were other men and women, having rods and striking each other and never ceasing from such punishment.

And others again near them, women and men, burning and turning themselves and roasting: and these were they that leaving the way of God.

Anoneemoose replied: That did not come from the Bible so what book do you take your beliefs?

If this is our old hyper-Armstrongist friend Tom, it's certainly surprising to find him quoting from the Apocalypse of Peter. As Anoneemoose said, that book is not exactly a part of the Bible. Though it was popular in many Christian circles in early times, it was never really in the running as canonical scripture. Comparable images are found in canonical scripture, of course, such as Rev. 20 or Luke 16, and in fact there are a lot of people today (some of them are Christian ministers, priests, and bishops)who treat each other the way the people in the Apocalypse of Peter are described as treating each other.

Tom said:The Apocalypse of Peter is on my web site...

2007-11-20T07:34:00.000+13:00

Tom said:The Apocalypse of Peter is on my web site. It should be terrifying reading for anyone who has fallen from grace.

Tue Nov 20, 07:01:00 AM NZDT

Here is some of that article.

And alongside of these were other men and women, having rods and striking each other and never ceasing from such punishment.

And others again near them, women and men, burning and turning themselves and roasting: and these were they that leaving the way of God.

That did not come from the Bible so what book do you take your beliefs? Dante's Inferno?
Is Dante Alighieri your mentor?

Tom>>>But by the time they get home and the hype w...

2007-11-20T07:01:00.000+13:00

Tom>>>But by the time they get home and the hype wears off, their fears return to torment them; their doubts plague them and their hopes turn to despair. Until, of course, the next dose of religious therapy, in the form of loud music and a ranting preacher.<<<

Tallone>>>That sounds like a perfect description of Armstrongites returning from various FOT sites.<<<

Funny enough, I never felt like that after returning from FOT. But then, I have never been an Armstrongite, you might be devastated to discover!

From the moment I was called by God into the fellowship of his son, Christ Jesus, it was revealed to me by the Holy Spirit of Truth, that I am a vessel of mercy, whose name was written in heaven before the foundation of the world.

So the FOT was for me a time of refreshing. However, I hasten to add, that refreshing didn't always come from the sermons I heard, but from my personal bible study. That is not to say, that over the years I didn't hear some uplifting sermons from a few ministers.

Sadly, those of you who were associated with WCG and have now fallen from grace, were never truly converted. You endured for a while, but when sun got hot you whither away, like the seed that falls on stony ground, and doesn't have any deep roots.

So it not surprising that you spent some time church hopping, and are now completely disillusioned, possibly, with all religion, as you have been betrayed by all the charlatans in cog land.

Now you are unable to make sense of what the bible teaches, angry at everyone, including yourself, and uncertain of your future after death.

The Apocalypse of Peter is on my web site. It should be terrifying reading for anyone who has fallen from grace.

ok, lesson learned again...no buddies here!

2007-11-20T06:13:00.000+13:00

ok, lesson learned again...no buddies here!

Lussenheide said... Not one woman ever posts on th...

2007-11-20T03:01:00.000+13:00

Lussenheide said...
Not one woman ever posts on this blog.

NOT ONE!

Ho Ho Ho ...Guess who??

It smells in here like a bunch of Old Farts, Sweaty body odor, and bad breath. I picture a bunch of unshaven, beer bellied , disarranged haired, nerd balls.

That's why I have to burn candles and look at my Brad Pitt poster after visiting here.

2007-11-19T18:54:00.000+13:00

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

Hillsong: Sunday Service 8:45am !The millionaire H...

2007-11-19T18:26:00.000+13:00

Hillsong: Sunday Service 8:45am !

The millionaire Hillsong leaders and conservative prime minister Howard have done a good job of bringing Germanic-American work-ethic to formally laid-back Australia . It used to be only American Lutherans who were mad enough head to church at dawn on Sunday.

"Even current Prime Minister John Howard has put i...

2007-11-19T16:49:00.000+13:00

"Even current Prime Minister John Howard has put in an appearance in the pews."

Politicians know the importance of an obedient and malleable middle class - thus his visit to the mindless western suburbs of Sydney.

Not one woman ever posts on this blog. NOT ONE! It...

2007-11-19T16:47:00.000+13:00

Not one woman ever posts on this blog.

NOT ONE!

It smells in here like a bunch of Old Farts, Sweaty body odor, and bad breath. I picture a bunch of unshaven, beer bellied , disarranged haired, nerd balls.

Lets all get together, quit whining, and belching, clean it up like it was the good ole days at a Womans Nite Spokesmansclub meeting and pick up on some of the Hillsong broads!

Come on guys, you still got it! Life is way to short to go around castrated.

Lussenheide

"The men's Christian movement of the 90s that was ...

2007-11-19T15:45:00.000+13:00

"The men's Christian movement of the 90s that was restoring men to their families?"

Upon exiting Armstrongism (though by that point it was Dart/Wooten/Havir's Armstrongism Lite) into mainstream Christianity, I was disturbed by the continual flow of "movements" and "restorations" that my Protestant friends kept attaching to. Every month was some new movement, restoration, or doctrine that promised to enrich spiritual lives, restore the Church, and above all, bring forth the Gifts O' the Spirit. They tended to come from new glossy books from the local Christian bookstore, or more often, from local home preachers with a new doctrinal spin. Yet they were always discarded within weeks for the next New Thing. It never occured to them them that the reasons the Promises Didn't Flow was because God Doesn't Exist, not becuase they weren't getting it just right.

Paul

wow..ecstatic women are really cute!

2007-11-19T14:29:00.000+13:00

wow..ecstatic women are really cute!

"But by the time they get home and the hype wears ...

2007-11-19T13:58:00.000+13:00

"But by the time they get home and the hype wears off, their fears return to torment them; their doubts plague them and their hopes turn to despair. Until, of course, the next dose of religious therapy, in the form of loud music and a ranting preacher."

I'm sure that is what happened to Joseph, Mary, and Jesus when they came home from the Feast as well.

They were very gullible to observe the Holy Days, you know.

Dennis Diehl: (Sorry, the thingy won't recognize ...

2007-11-19T12:56:00.000+13:00

Dennis Diehl: (Sorry, the thingy won't recognize me..like that's a feeling I have not had before! :)

Doug got it right. "Forget religion.It's a business."

Perhaps someday, after enough amazingly dumb experiences with it, people will give up religion and opt for a more personal spirituality.

They will give up gurus and understand that a truly good teacher merely reminds you of what you already know inside.

They will come to see no one has any secret truth you have never quit heard put this way or that in a sermon and if you miss church that day, you haven't missed much.

They may come to suspect that religion is brought to us by the insecure, the fearful, the controlling, the guilt ridden or the mentally ill. Oh and the sincere too, but sincerity never made something literally true.

They will learn they don't have to be anywhere, do anything or perform anything to be accepted or acceptable. Being born right the first time will simply be recognized as the way it is and always has been no matter what you have been told about Adam, Eve and Original Sin.

They will learn the Exodus never happened either and wow, does that change a few things religious on the planet. (Israel Finkelstein had a nice chat with me about this years ago at Megiddo. He convinced me.)

They will understand that you can forgive and be forgiven without the shedding of blood. "I forgive you" and "I am sorry," will be enough..the animals and the humansand the gods are free to go home now.

Redemption by execution will not inspire them.

They will realize a real god does not need to be jealous of other gods nor does he need to punish the sons for the sins of the fathers,three or four generations down the road or whatever the rules because Ezekiel rescinded that.

They will see that religion is not spread for any god by violence.

They won't worry about the role of women in the church because men and women are the same kind of being and equal no matter what the myth of Adam and Eve taught the Apostles, Paul, Church fathers or the Church.

They will not worry there is some true church they have to find in their short human lifetime or burn in hell.

They won't have to belong to anything to be made right and that becoming perfect, mature or in anyway like a god in this life is a formula for mental illness and a life of fear, guilt and shame for falling so miserably short.

They will learn that God doesn't need their time, their money or their allegience to advance any agenda in or for him.

They will recognize that religion is manmade, headed by men who don't know near as much one would think or believe their own declarations of how it all is most of the time.

They will suspect many if not not most church father's were loons.

They will recognize that prophecy is not, that windows of heaven don't open when you give your resources to a Priestcraft and that "whatever you ask in my name shall be given to you", is a lie.

They will also believe what has already been noted, that those who can convince you of absurdities can push you to permit or inflict autrocities on others for Jesus sake.

They will truly understand that religion is, at best, the misunderstanding and misapplication of mythology.

They will understand that "have faith" means suspend common sense and don't ask questions.

And they will finally come to see that sanctified ignorance is still ignorance."

They will learn that a lion will eat a lamb and the little child needs to stay safely back. Men and dinosaurs can't coexist and we really did evolve from other hominid forms over millions of years...how cool is that.

And we will laugh to think that a hairless ape that gets religion is one to be taken too seriously...yet also leave a little room for what we don't understand yet about being so aware and able to produce such wonder when we get it right.

Oh..and that a 6000 year plan of a god is too short and isn't about to end.

(The above comments are the opinions of the author and may not reflect your own experience. They do not reflect the views of this station or any of its sponsors. None of this will appear in any future edition of The Journal, even though Dixon and I like each other. I'm sorry I came back here briefly when I asked God three times to remove this AW thing from me. But in my weakness I am made strong and God said, "My Gavin is sufficient for you." You're still most of the last friends I have..pretty sad huh! Just kidding. I have almost 8 friends in real life. :)

Bastor Diehl- High Priest of Marduk

>>>But by the time they get home and the hype wear...

2007-11-19T11:48:00.000+13:00

>>>But by the time they get home and the hype wears off, their fears return to torment them; their doubts plague them and their hopes turn to despair. Until, of course, the next dose of religious therapy, in the form of loud music and a ranting preacher.<<<

That sounds like a perfect description of Armstrongites returning from various FOT sites.

It was officially called "Post Feast Letdown" or "PFL" for short.

Of course, Tall One, the one to whom you responded is not a true Armstrongist: He has formed his own cult, replete with a website [a rather pathetic one], has his own "worship services" for the Sabbath. What he does for Feasts is not clear, maybe he will advertise in the Journal. He is a true narcissistic cultmeister, just several cuts below Meredith, Flurry, Ritenbaugh, Pack and Cox.

Not to worry though, we can expect continued postings from him as he builds his cult. Expect typical Armstrongist cult pronouncements, filled with idolatry, self-righteousness and hatred, all in the name of Herbert Armstrong, who would not at all be pleased in having his name used to build the fortunes of a wanna-be and would have delegated his disfellowshipment to an underling long ago if he were still alive -- if that is, he paid any attention to this minor leaguer amateur at all.

Banboo_Bends:Interesting question. I just did a G...

2007-11-19T11:40:00.000+13:00

Banboo_Bends:

Interesting question. I just did a Google search. Promise Keeper's came up. Still seems alive & well.

They even have an "Ambassador Program."

>>>But by the time they get home and the hype wear...

2007-11-19T10:43:00.000+13:00

>>>But by the time they get home and the hype wears off, their fears return to torment them; their doubts plague them and their hopes turn to despair. Until, of course, the next dose of religious therapy, in the form of loud music and a ranting preacher.<<<

That sounds like a perfect description of Armstrongites returning from various FOT sites.

The sanctified hype starts wearing off. The bills start coming in for the excess spending that the families did.

Then it turns to despair as they find out about the drunkenness and gluttony of many of the higher ups that went on during 'gods feast'.

Then they hear about the sex orgies and promiscuity that went on.

Then the stories about the ministry living in 4 star luxury hotel suites living life to the fullest, not realizing that the FOT celebrations of the ministry was ALL tax deductible. The ministry got to write it all off, while the sheeple couldn't.

Of course that doubt and despair lasted till Lord MerryDeath or Herbvert started screeching at the sheeple for being such pathetic laodicians and that their salvation was at stake if they did not change their miserable attitudes.

Oh the joy of riding the Armstrongite merry-go-round.

Gavin,What ever became of the Promise Keeper's? T...

2007-11-19T10:36:00.000+13:00

Gavin,

What ever became of the Promise Keeper's? The men's Christian movement of the 90s that was restoring men to their families?

They seemed to have evaporated overnight. Are we restored now?

I was wondering how long that recruiting method of making men confess their weaknesses to one another would last. That creeps out most men.

Its one thing to go before God and confess one's faults, another to share them with people of unknown motives and political aims. God forgives, humans remember.

Whatever happened to "a gentleman never tells"?

Brian Houston said: We’re paid a wage that’s set b...

2007-11-19T09:29:00.000+13:00

Brian Houston said:

We’re paid a wage that’s set by the board of the church. And it’s a good wage but the average private high school teacher in New South Wales gets paid significantly more. (Huh?

I think one myth that people have is that we get royalties from the products sold in the bookshop at the church. Basically, the books and tapes that Bobbie and I have written, we write and pay for, we own those books ourselves. If they are sold through the church, then that’s where the profits go. But what we do extends beyond the church. And so a lot of our income comes from our speaking and our writing and the things we do outside of the church. It’s put us in the position where over the last few years we’ve been able to give to the church, literally as much, or even on some years, more than the church has given us.

So I make no apology for that, because it really is an outworking of the message that we’re teaching everyone else, to resource your life in a way that can enable you to be more effective.

There’s been reports written about me, that I was a property developer, or a silent investor in property development, that I’ve been a director in a café, that I own a travel agent. Again, that we receive royalties off the books in the front of the church, none of which has ever been true, and yet they get perpetuated, it seems, from one publication to the next publication.

Hillsong church is a non-profit organisation, and like any non-profit organisation there are tax breaks, so that we are able to put back into people, put back into ministry. Some people get upset about that, especially as the church gets bigger and it gets more effective. The reality is, I feel like we operate under the rules. If those rules ever change, we then have to operate under the new rules. I’m quite okay with that. All it ultimately affects is our ability to help people.

I am in favour of the idea of some form of charities commission or some greater scrutiny of non-profit organisations, simply because I think it takes away the ability of people to point the finger and misrepresent the motives of non-profit organisations.

In 2004, Hillsong Church’s income was $40,000,000. It goes 60% towards helping people directly through our programs and our ministries and so on, 28% of that has gone into buildings and facilities, which ultimately also are about the people, because you have to house all those people somewhere. And then the other 12% goes towards general administration and the running of the ministry.

All the giving in our church is free will. No one is told what to give. Tithing is a biblical principle. I think the last sermon I heard in our church on tithing was probably five years ago. And so giving is a hard issue. It’s something that people do because they want to do it.

Our church is a modern church, and yes, if people want to give with their credit card, they’re welcome to, because the reality is, people use it in every part of their lives. I was talking to a friend just this week and he told me in their little Anglican church they’re about to give people the opportunity to give through credit card. So to me it’s no big deal, it just is a convenience for people.

I’d like to be the pastor of Hillsong until they have to wheel me out. The reality is I really want to empower the next generation, and I want more than anything else to feel like I hand over well. I don’t want to be so old that I’m completely out of touch before I let go of this, this work.

I do have a sense of fulfillment in terms of the opportunity that we’ve had. My best fulfillment is not in seeing buildings or, or even how far the album sales have gone. When I see lives growing, when I see little kids who have grown up and their lives are starting to build and I feel like we’ve had something to do with that, that to me is the most fulfilling thing of all.

Brian and Bobbie Houston's earnings from all sources, including Hillsong Church, are paid into the not-for-profit Leadership Ministries Incorporated (LMI), which funds ministry and charitable work.

Brian Houston says LMI is his only source of income.

The NSW Office of Fair Trading said tonight it has never received an annual statement from LMI and “will be in contact with them to determine their status and request lodgement of the outstanding statements”.

Tanya Levin says: To tithe literally means to give...

2007-11-19T09:03:00.000+13:00

Tanya Levin says:

To tithe literally means to give a tenth. This is a complicated Old Testament practice, relevant to certain tribes of Israel. It was never for every man, woman and child, despite being heralded as such by the prosperity proponents. The understanding at Hillsong and in churches like it around the world is that each person should tithe whatever they receive as income. Pocket money, babysitting earnings, wages, Christmas bonuses, all before tax. Tithing is not just for individuals. Ten per cent, pre-tax, of what every church makes in the weekly offering goes back to the head office of the Assemblies of God.

Offerings are money you want to give above and beyond your tithe. This may be a general offering, or for a specific purpose.

Sacrificial offerings occur when the pastor believes that it is appropriate for you to go without something to support a cause. It often comes across as a privilege to be involved in such a special project, such as a building or outreach, and people are willing to sacrifice "that trip to McDonald's", as it is often referred to, and give the money used for that to the church.

How does one pay tithes and offerings? At Hillsong it couldn't be easier. Not one service that I ever attended neglected to mention that the envelopes under your seat, labeled according to offering department, allow you to pay by cash, check (made out to "Hillsong Church"), or credit card details.

The offerings are taken upstairs and counted, then put into bags. On Monday the armored truck comes and takes it away.

Where do the millions go? Hillsong publishes its accounts and says that its books are open. But people who have asked to see the books describe being looked at up and down, and being told they had an attitude problem. Brian told ABC-TV's Australian Story in 2005 that the annual revenue was close to $50m and that "60% of that goes to helping people directly through our programs and our ministries and so on, 28% to buildings and facilities and 12% to administration and running of the ministry".

This kind of money isn't a philosophical problem for the new fundamentalist Christian. God wants you to be rich. He called you to live in abundance. Why shouldn't Brian ride a Harley? It's the best way of demonstrating the blessing of God in his life.

Prosperity theology is very confusing for me. It seems a contradiction in terms, like military intelligence.

There used to be a time when Christian preachers used to yell out Jesus! to every question they asked the congregation. "What's the answer to heroin addiction? Jesus!"

Now "Jesus" has been replaced by "Money". I could be grateful and say at least they're being honest, about money being the real answer and Jesus being some kind of distraction for a good night out.

An inmate in a NSW jail was bailed to a Hillsong rehabilitation service. On the first day he was there, one of the young millionaire businessmen leaders took him out to show him his sports car. The idea was to get the client to realise that with a bit of elbow grease and some commitment to the Jesus program, he too could have a car like that one day.

"Tanya, he tried to impress me with money," the young man told me from jail, where he chose to return rather than continue under the Jesus program. "We're drug dealers, criminals, working girls. We've seen more money than most people. We know what money can do to people. We don't want to learn how to make money. We need to know how to handle what we've got."

Prosperity theology means God wants you rich. It's a case of "don't ask why I am wearing a Rolex. Ask why you're not." Of course God wants you to be rich. He loves you, doesn't He? And as all the evangelists will remind you constantly, the Lord loves a cheerful giver.

That is Orthodoxy for you...o Corrupt doctrinally...

2007-11-19T07:13:00.000+13:00

That is Orthodoxy for you...

o Corrupt doctrinally
o Corrupt morally
o Corrupt politically

At least the old WCG had a more correct doctrinal position and avoided politics; but without question the WCG was morally corrupt.

Jesus was an observant Jew. He kept Sabbath, he kept Holy Days, and he didn't fight the Romans.

Jesus did these things! And the old WCG embraced his example and teaching.

That is commendable.

In a world where most people' lives are are devoid...

2007-11-19T06:47:00.000+13:00

In a world where most people' lives are are devoid of meaning and fulfilment, it is not surprising that they turn to religion, hoping that it will fill the void. And while they are in the church environment, and are swept along by the raucous music and the rantings of a sweaty preacher , all their cares and concerns are dispelled. In such an environment, their fears disappear; their doubts turn to certainties and their hopes become realistic.

But by the time they get home and the hype wears off, their fears return to torment them; their doubts plague them and their hopes turn to despair. Until, of course, the next dose of religious therapy, in the form of loud music and a ranting preacher.

Of course conventional religion is not the only thing that people turn to for deluded comfort. Some have are now embracing the new religion of Global Warming, and aspire to convert everyone to their doctrine of Imminent Disaster, with same irrational zeal as most TV evangelists. Others have rejected all religions, and have decided to worship themselves, under the guise of atheism.

When God's elect see so much chaos and confusion in Satan's world, they give thanks to God for his calling, and for "Christ in you, the hope of glory,"