Comments on Ambassador Watch: CGI back online

The Church of God experience was unique for each o...

2008-01-13T18:21:00.000+13:00

The Church of God experience was unique for each of us, and I would expect even more so for ministers, so some explanation as to circumstances should be welcome. A blanket apology, with no explanation, could have little meaning for most of us.

Besides it is interesting to learn the trauma involved, and the steps and decisions he made leading to an escape.

I hope that the entire ministry can make whatever personal changes are needed for each of them to be free, but frankly, I would not wish to have an apology from any of my former ministers. It would be more than enough to only learn that they somehow were able to find a way out and to live with themselves thereafter.

No, Steve. Dennis was not and is NOT a member of ...

2008-01-13T17:36:00.000+13:00

No, Steve. Dennis was not and is NOT a member of the 'good ole boy's club', which most defintely exists.

As Byker says, they would never show up here.

I'm amazed how the "good ole boy" club is alive an...

2008-01-13T08:19:00.000+13:00

I'm amazed how the "good ole boy" club is alive and well on this forum. If someone steps one of the good ole boys toes, then the rest come to the rescue. Hey, you flattered the "ministers" in the old WCG, so why am I surprised that you do it here? After all, you went to Herbie's college, so defend them tooth and toenail, and keep up the flattery. It shows that you are a member of the "good ole boys" club. Jared, I never told Dennis to shut up and go away. I just told him that he talked too much, and that I could see his old "minister" hairs sticking out, but, hey, that's just me. Now, I challenge the "good ole boys" club to look at what Dennis said in his letter to the Painful Truth editor, and tell me who could be so lilly-white in Herbie's putrid organization, especially while being on the payroll. I have apologized to many who came into that rotten, stinky cult after I did because it was my money that drew them in and trapped them. For that, for MY part, I am truly sorry! I don't make a list of the good things I did, saying that I was soooo good, because the bad outweighs the good. Dennis is in denial, and the rest of you aren't helping him. You, along with him, are just wallowing in the pig slop. So, flatter away.

Good observations there, Reality!One of the after ...

2008-01-13T07:49:00.000+13:00

Good observations there, Reality!

One of the after effects many of us exCOGgers have needed to deal with is binary thinking, which was practically institutionalized at WCG.

In this case, the binary (and somewhat circular) thinking follows these lines: Minister X was horribly abusive. So were Ministers V, W, Y, and Z. In fact, look at all of the anecdotal evidence collected at the PT website! Minister D was also a member of and employed by the WCG. Therefore, Minister D must also have been abusive. How could he not have been.

Right now, on the opening page of the Painful Truth website, you can read a horrible first person story of spousal abuse which had its root in the ministerial counsel of Bill Gordon. There have, from time to time, been any number of similar testimonies as to the brutality and total lack of humanity or Christian attributes exhibited by certain select members of the ministry. In some peoples' minds, that sets off a lynch mob mentality.

The problem is that there was an identifiable spectrum of ministerial behavior. These guys were individuals with distinct personal attributes. Some of them were brutal, and we read horrible things about them. Others are still loved by the people they actually did "serve", and their former congregation members write in, stating that they loved their minister, hope he's doing well, and are so glad he wasn't like many of the others. So, there's something terribly unfair about wanting to lynch every single one of the WCG ministers because of the widespread injustices with which we are all familiar. Nothing is ever 100%. There are always exceptions.

I'd say hold back indignation and reserve it for the ones who were truly bad. Of course, I realize that those in that category would never subject themselves to our scrutiny on these sites. They know what would be waiting for them here! Unfortunately, their absence or unavailability causes some people to misplace their anger and actually attack good people, just because they were once part of the system.

I've gotten myself in trouble on other forums for stating the above, but I really don't care. Fair is fair. If anyone is blameworthy, it would be HWA for developing such a corrupt and cruel system. To be honest with you all, I believe there were even some "good" evangelists, some of whom I wouldn't mind seeing again.

BB

I think we all had our part in the system which hu...

2008-01-13T01:47:00.000+13:00

I think we all had our part in the system which hurt so many.

We contributed by sending in our tithes, gifting our homes, volunteering free services etc. to the WCG and XWCG systems in that we provided the means for those systems to continue and to grow.

This was our part in that system.

We each had to learn and repent of our part just as ministers had to first learn what was going on and then learn which steps to take to survive and later be of service in helping others.

Few, if any other, ministers have been able to rise to the occasion and effect change as Dennis has done.

I think we all have quite a way to go, but we cannot go forward unless we can first see things as they really are.

Dennis Diehl,You have my standing ovation!You have...

2008-01-13T00:58:00.000+13:00

Dennis Diehl,

You have my standing ovation!

You have NOTHING to be embarrassed about. Please do not let one moron that posts here to silence you from expressing your thoughts, perspective and opinions that are of benefit to the majority of us readers. You have paid a mighty price for your life's experiences. Please share your unique perspectives with others here as you deem fit.

Thank you Dennis,

Richard

Dennis said: "And yes, I have made plenty of mista...

2008-01-12T16:57:00.000+13:00

Dennis said: "And yes, I have made plenty of mistakes and mishandled some things just as badly as the next guy in life."

Amen brother!

Have a good weekend Dennis!

Steve,Take a chill pill dude.You appear to wound u...

2008-01-12T16:53:00.000+13:00

Steve,

Take a chill pill dude.

You appear to wound up even tighter than Tom Mahon.

Signing the apology was all or nothing. It was NOT...

2008-01-12T16:51:00.000+13:00

Signing the apology was all or nothing. It was NOT just admit to your own mistakes. It was to admit to ALL those mistakes. I was even asked to sign it just to show good faith and set an example. But I pointed out the document listed a hundred very specific admissions, few of which, I had practiced, and none of which I practiced maliciously or thinking I was anything more than a member who was also a minister.

The author agreed with me that to sign it generically was indeed to seem to say one did all that. No one did all that.

I can be generically sorry for being a part of something that eventually I came to see as not appropropriate or correct. That was a process. Any member can do the same for any part they may have played as well.

This whole exhange embarasses me more than hurts me personally. I know who I was, who I am and the internal conflict between what I hoped would change for the good and never did. I apologize for being naive and hopeful. My congregations came first over anything HQ said in all their impractical inexperience with the lives of real people.

(No one in the WCG Administration has apologized to me for all the lying conferences and answers to specific questions that later proved me to be a fool to believe.)

I married them, buried them, listened to them and held them while they screamed at God as we stood by the river waiting to find their child's body, or waiting for the ambulance to bring the body in from the wreck or said goodbye to the child as they die on the gurney. I have been dragged by the hand by shocked out moms back to the morgue to view dead teens and opened body drawers with a wife who is still yelling at her husband for getting killed. Real shit happens and I have seen some real shit.

Things like that affected my soul and trivialize the intellectual wrangling people do over the nature of God or how many Gods make up one.

From two days ago:

"Mr. Diehl Just wanted to say hello. I read some of your articles and your main, more autobiographical piece. It was really good to "see" you after all this time...

For what it's worth, the sermons you gave were beneficial without theological boundaries, if that makes sense. Anyone would have gained from them. ....

Mainly wanted to say hi and let you know that I always thought the world of you and greatly enjoyed when you were in the church area. It ticked me off to hear that you weren't in the area anymore while my brother and I were at AC."

Signed.....

And again..From a month ago...

"The ministers I respected the most were the ones
like yourself who actually cared for the people in their congregations
and tried to comfort and protect them."

etc...over the past decade.

In one month I had four former teens in my past congregations call to say hi, now in their 40's, and tell me they were gay. When I asked why they called to tell me that, they said, "because I knew you would understand and not judge me...and I got thinking about you." Just to be clear here for the benefit of the few who will look up scriptures...gay is who somone is and not much of a choice, in my humble and goddless opinion. I have gay clients who make it very clear to me how it all was and is in their lives and it is who they are.

I'm not looking for anyone's approval. This exchange has given me a lot to think about and for that I thank you. I only have to be comfortable with me, and I am. more now than ever. If one can achieve that one thing in life, I think they will find it enough.

I will make more of an effort to not feel so free to comment and encourage those that never do or seldom to to take up the space and tell us about you and how you are growing through.

Jared, thank you for you kind comments. Of course I respect you, your choices and sincere faith. We're all here to learn.

It is the most sincere that seem to get the most hurt when religion and people fail them'

The rancourous I truly don't understand and can't identify with and have nothing to say to. In my worst moment, I would never express myself to anyone as you few seem to be so easily to do.

I personally don't wish to filter my world and opinion of others through whatever it is that allows you to so freely spit on others in your Jesus.

PS. I rather hate this sounding like defending myself as well because that will be the next criticism. But neither do I have to take a stabbling lying down. Trust me, anyone "defending" the minister who got trapped between the congregation and HQ is rather rare.

I grew up well educated and more church attending as a Presbyterian before I ever set foot on the campus of the WCG. Dutch Calvinists don't ignore their kids religious education. We had to memorize whole parts of the Bible as kids.

I was never just one of "them." I was one of you, working for them for as long as I could. After a messy transition, confusion of spirit and a mental limbo of about five years, with many good memories of many good people all behind, it ended and I opened myself up to all the doubts soaking in the Bible can lead to in any religious environment if you ask the right questions.

I will always have a heart for truth, but not bullshit, opinion, just have faith, blind acceptance or going with the tribe because that's what's expected. I also know the Bible and history can be spun any way needed, as if we could know for sure how it all is or was.

As good ol' Cher once said, "My life has not been easy. In fact it's been downright messy at times. But it's just me, doing the best I can..."

And yes, I have made plenty of mistakes and mishandled some things just as badly as the next guy in life.

For my money, Steve's comments display the same ki...

2008-01-12T16:20:00.000+13:00

For my money, Steve's comments display the same kind of extremist, intolerant judgmentalism that was fostered in the WCG. My counsel, for all it's worth (probably not much) is that, rather than working himself up over whether or not Dennis meets his personal standards of righteousness, Steve ought to take a good look at himself.

I also had to laugh to see him holding up The Painful Truth website as some kind of authority that must be respected. Who gave the PT website this vaunted role of Litmus Tester of Former WCG Ministers? Probably the same person who gave Herbert Armstrong the authority and office of God's Apostle and End-Time Elijah.

2008-01-12T16:11:00.000+13:00

This comment has been removed by the author.

Steve, I'm trying to understand you here. Are you...

2008-01-12T14:47:00.000+13:00

Steve, I'm trying to understand you here. Are you saying that it was totally impossible for even one person to have been a "good" WCG minister? I just can't buy into that thinking. I know that it is possible to be subversive in just about any job or status of life. You do this by maintaining your conscience, doing what you believe to be the right thing, and staying below the radar.

Any time this issue has surfaced re: D. Diehl, members of his past congregations have come forward to praise and defend him.

I think you're trying to shoot all of the ducks in the hopes that you'll nail the guilty ones.

Remember, there were subversive "Nazis" during WWII who loved and helped Jewish people, often at a great peril to themselves.

You really need to examine your standards of basic fairness here.

BB

Corky said... "Steve,Maybe you missed this."Click ...

2008-01-12T14:21:00.000+13:00

Corky said...
"Steve,
Maybe you missed this."

Click here

http://www.hwarmstrong.com/diehl_list.htm

MY COMMENT: Nope. Didn't miss a thing. "God, I thank you that I'm not like the other ministers, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as those head honchos. I fast twice a week: I give tithes of all that I possess. Look at all the good I did." Notice that Dennis didn't apologize for ANYTHING. He was a "saint" in ALL of his dealings with the flock.

Byker Bob said...
"What in hell is the statute of limitations on the crime of having been a WCG minister?"

MY COMMENT: The CRIME is in not admitting that you ever did any wrong, and boasting that you were a "saint" in all of it. Better to apologize, have remorse, and move on...not make excuses about how righteous one was in the whole damn mess!

"I don't give a damn whether or not someone has signed that extreme "ministerial apology" page over at Painful Truth."

MY COMMENT: No problem. That's your right. You're entitled to it, but I DO give a damn!

"To sign that you've got to admit to almost every vile thing except having been a homosexual child molester!"

MY COMMENT: That's very untrue. A "minister" just has to admit to his own wrongdoing. When someone has to write paragraphs explaining how GOOD they are...I get a little suspicious.

What in hell is the statute of limitations on the ...

2008-01-12T13:51:00.000+13:00

What in hell is the statute of limitations on the crime of having been a WCG minister?

There is a hierarchy of WCG ministry, starting at the top of the pyramid, with "good". At the top would be the ones who have repented of their Armstrongism, and are now trying to help ex-church members who are in recovery. That takes some major guts! Dennis is certainly part of that group, and I don't give a damn whether or not someone has signed that extreme "ministerial apology" page over at Painful Truth. To sign that you've got to admit to almost every vile thing except having been a homosexual child molester!

Continuing the hierarchy, the next level would be the Armstrongist ministers who have died and are no longer doing harm to anyone. Depending on your individual beliefs, they either got away with everything, or else they are awaiting judgement.

Just above the bottom layer, but still crossing into the "bad" zone are the ministers whose Armstrongism is less cultic, less authoritarian, and more altruistic towards the human race at large. They're benign, but still spreading false beliefs and harmful doctrine like British Israel racism.

At the very bottom are the "burn in hell bad guys" who are still fleecing their flocks, micro-supervising their members, dominating members' finances, and making their medical decisions for them. These guys are the ones who make you wish for the days of the lions!

Some of the then future ministers were my friends while we were at AC together, and I can tell you that while some were flaming assholes, others were good guys who were victimized by the same bad system that we all were, only often on an even more extreme level than we regular members were.

I'd much rather sit down and have beer and pretzels with good people like Dennis Diehl than I would with willing sickos who deliberately keep themselves bitter and angry, years after their actual exit. Negativity is very catching, feeds on itself, and destroys the human spirit. Jesus knew this, which is why He instructed His followers to forgive and even pray for their enemies!

BB

The point of a blog is to do just that...BLOG. Whi...

2008-01-12T10:22:00.000+13:00

The point of a blog is to do just that...BLOG. While I may not see things from the same perspective as Dennis or anyone else here, it doesn't mean that I have the right to be rude and impolite to them.

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" comes to mind. BTW, Tom Mahon and Steve, those are Christ's words so if you want to attack them, make sure you attack the right person.

We all are here because Gavin has made this an open blog. Therefore, we're a guest in his blog, so to speak. If a guest is uncomfortable some place he or she has been invited, the guest finds a way to politely leave quickly without offense.

Tom Mahon and Steve have the choice to visit or not, to leave if they don't like it without offense.

It seems clear they come here to attack, offend, and exalt themselves as somehow being superior to the rest of us.

The only other offensive and irascible guests even close to this that I know of on the planet are roaches. Perhaps Tom Mahon and Steve would survive with them in the event of a worldwide nuclear war.

Maybe their "love" and "charity" will work better on roaches.

You never know...

Steve said: Uh...correct me if I'm wrong, but isn'...

2008-01-12T07:52:00.000+13:00

Steve said: Uh...correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't his mug shot still on the "Hall of Shame" list over at the Painful Truth website?

Maybe it is. I don't hang out at the PT website, and anyway their opinion doesn't necessarily carry any truck with me.

If somebody posting your photo at a website is all it takes for you to have not really stopped being a WCG minister, then I guess the WCG is in major default on its payroll.

I've never heard Denny apologize for his part in the abusive, rotten-to-the-core Armstrong cult.

Just because you don't know if he's ever apologised, it gives you no right to treat him poorly. If you want to interact substantively and seriously with what he says, do so, but it's unhelpful, to say the least, to offer "you talk too much" (i.e. "shut up and go away") remarks or to demand he meet your personal expectations of what a former WCG minister should be. Judgmentalism and unkindness are just as bad coming from a former Armstrongist as they are from an Armstrongist.

Tom said: Since I have been posting here, no one has personally attack Dennis.

He was personally attacked in this discussion.

On the contrary, he has enjoyed endless flattery from his admirers

Tom, a lot of people here like what he has to say and agree with him, or at least are happy to listen to him share his perspectives and recount his experiences.

In addition, I have been severely critical of his admitted failure to speak out against the changes introduced by Tkach.

Most people probably wouldn't think there was anything blameworthy in his not speaking out against the WCG's doctrinal reforms of the 1990s.

Unity of the Spirit 'Endeavouring to keep the unit...

2008-01-12T06:30:00.000+13:00

Unity of the Spirit

'Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace' (Ephesians 4:3)

'So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another' (Romans 12:5)

All Christians pay at least lip service to the idea of 'unity'. Hardly surprising, for the emphasis on it pervades the Scriptures. Every one of us owes our all to Jesus and we all believe we are part of his Body '...one in Christ Jesus' (Galatians 3:28). So why is unity so elusive? Why can't brethren work in harmony?

.....It's fruitful to understand first that the apostle Paul presents us with two kinds of unity - what we are discussing in this study - 'unity of the Spirit' (Ephesians 4:3), and (addressed later) 'unity of the faith' (v.13)

.....'Unity of the Spirit' , he says, is here and now: 'endeavour to keep [guard]…' it, he tells us. It's the unity that is an expression of the indwelling Spirit in us. For those 'in Christ' there is 'one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all' (Ephesians 4:5-6). We are all organically related to the Father, to Jesus - and to one another. Whether or not we like the latter - once begotten we can't choose family!

.....The implication that we must 'endeavour' [Gk: intensely labour] to maintain unity suggests there is some fragility to it. It demands co-operative effort, energy on our part. Unity of the Spirit doesn't just happen, and Paul gives us a clue to enable it: '...in the bond of peace' (Ephesians 4:3 ) - a trait that is 'bound' by agape, love ((see Colossians 3:14)

.....Apart from the Spirit of God this unity is impossible. Sooner or later every organization has its dissension - and not least in religion. Started with the best of intentions every congregation will divide or bleed members - the more so the larger the organization, even where there's a strong hierarchy that squashes dissent and thus drives it underground

.....We should recognize that the pursuit of 'unity' is addressed primarily to each local congregation. It is not corporate or organizational

.....Upon repentance and belief in Jesus the Messiah we are 'seeded' by the Spirit (Acts 5:32) - but the degree to which 'the fruits of the Spirit' ('...love, joy, peace, long-suffering, kindness, goodness, faith, meekness, self-control' - Galatians 5:22-23) are individually grown is determined by our own will. If all Christians in a congregation were 'Spirit-filled' unity would be complete. It's a life-long personal process of 'intense labour', of co-operation with the Father! We learn such qualities of character from the Father as displayed in the life of Jesus: '...he that has seen me has seen the Father' (John 14:9). Elsewhere the apostle urges believers to '...put on' (eg Colossians 3:12) these positive characteristics. They are not inborn but are acquired through personal, diligent effort

.....Two thousand years of Christianity hasn't brought that Spirit-unity closer. As in the first century local assemblies are today riven by attitudes that shatter peace, hinder unity. Paul worried about the Corinthian brethren: '...I fear that some of you may be arguing or jealous or angry or selfish or gossiping or insulting each other. I even fear that you may be proud and acting like a mob' (II Corinthians 12:20 CEV). He urges the congregations in Ephesus (4:2): '...with all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love'

.....Note that these admonitions imply face-to-face interaction between brethren. The Christian faith is corporate - 'one body'. It is in our assembling together that the skills needed for peace and harmony and unity are honed: '...Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as you see the day approaching' (Hebrews 10:23-26) Ω

Tom Mahon stated: "I believe that Gavin is much to...

2008-01-12T02:41:00.000+13:00

Tom Mahon stated: "I believe that Gavin is much too astute to agree with Dennis' attempt to rewrite the bible."

Tom, Dennis can speak for himself on this of course but I find no evidence that he is trying to rewrite the bible, he has been pointing out a wide variety of inconsistencies, contradictions, and things that don't quite add up. You may believe that the bible is 100% accurate and flawless, however if you use a little more of that brain that God endowed you with, you might find that the Bible is far from perfect.

A little free advice for you. Stop making your annoying pronouncements about what you think may be in store for we non-armstrongists for the future. It was at first amusing, then boring, but has now become quite tiresome...and you give ammo to those who think that anyone that believes in God must be a bible thumping moron. Try telling it to your mirror since it is obvious to all that you are very impressed with yourself.

Jared Olar said...>>>That doesn't excuse anyone at...

2008-01-11T22:50:00.000+13:00

Jared Olar said...

>>>That doesn't excuse anyone attacking him personally and showing no regard for his dignity as a human being. How about we show each other a little basic human decency.<<<

Since I have been posting here, no one has personally attack Dennis. On the contrary, he has enjoyed endless flattery from his admirers - I almost said mindless. But that wouldn't be entirely fair. For although Gavin likes him, I believe that Gavin is much too astute to agree with Dennis' attempt to rewrite the bible.

In addition, I have been severely critical of his admitted failure to speak out against the changes introduced by Tkach. I have also been astonished by his profound ignorance of the bible, and his blasphemous attempt to promote Dan Brown's perverse opinions of Jesus over the the divine revelation of the life and teachings Jesus.

His posts reflect a disturb mind, which is not surprising, for he has repudiated all that he once believe to be true, and has reverted to celebrating xmas. If saying that his mind is disturbed is deemed as a personal attack, I make no apologies for it. For any impartial, objective observer reading the three incoherent posts at the top of this thread, would be concerned about the mental state of the author.

However, I don't attack people, I attack their opinions and their behaviour, especially those who claim to be upholders of righteousness.

The dangers of late-night blog reading....I came u...

2008-01-11T22:14:00.000+13:00

The dangers of late-night blog reading....

I came upon this sentence fragment:
"......and so you think he's got lingering "WCG-minister-itis."

and my slightly dyslexic brain reads it as:
"......and so you think he's got lingering "WCG-minister-tits."

I was almost ready to post a comment about The Seinfeld Show's character Kramer, who invented "the Bro" as the middle-aged-man's male bra.

But then I rubbed my eyes again and saw that it said "itis", not "tits"....

So I'll go to bed now before I get pulled over for blogging while asleep.

And friends never ever drink and blog....

cracker said...>>>Okay Tom... your less then trans...

2008-01-11T21:41:00.000+13:00

cracker said...

>>>Okay Tom... your less then transparent attempt to use an alias, aka "Steve" won't work.
Don't try to make up fictitious allies in order to inflate the numbers of the Interdimensional Thick-head Church of Goads.<<<

Your power of deduction is just as poor as your ability to determine who is actually doing the "mud slinging." But I can assure you, I add my name to everything I write, and my name is not Steve.

Steve,Maybe you missed this.Click herehttp://www.h...

2008-01-11T17:57:00.000+13:00

Steve,
Maybe you missed this.

Click here

http://www.hwarmstrong.com/diehl_list.htm

2008-01-11T17:48:00.000+13:00

This comment has been removed by the author.

Sheesh!The comments board is a bit like a bar or p...

2008-01-11T17:24:00.000+13:00

Sheesh!

The comments board is a bit like a bar or pub. People wander in, sound off... But if you want to pick a fight with one of the patrons you might find the bouncer breathing down your neck.

And for the record, while I've never met Dennis in person, I know enough about the guy to count him as a friend. He's honest and insightful. I don't have a high opinion of many ministers or ex-ministers, but Dennis is an honorable exception. Anyone who has a problem with that can go do their drinking elsewhere.

Now, who ordered the Guinness?

Corky said... "Steve,I think we can all tell who i...

2008-01-11T16:28:00.001+13:00

Corky said...
"Steve,
I think we can all tell who is being "childish", I would just shut up before I embarrassed myself further."

MY COMMENT: Then, maybe you should. If anyone is truly honest on this forum, they would tell you how embarrasing you are to them. "No, you shut up. No, you shut up. No, you shut up." Very childish, Corky

"Of course, that's just me. But, if you think that Dennis is still a WCG minister then you have not been keeping up with much in your world."

MY COMMENT: Oh, he's still a WCG "minister" alright...just not on the payroll. Go ask the Painful Truth why they haven't removed him from the "Hall of Shame". He doesn't want to own up to his responsibility, and he's in denial that he was just another SS soldier following orders. Of course, that's just me.