tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post8670654611937656003..comments2016-12-17T06:08:17.313+13:00Gavinhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/03060097218905523899noreply@blogger.comBlogger45125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-28589089898768974572007-02-07T08:45:00.000+13:002007-02-07T08:45:00.000+13:00Kscribe / Dennis: I'll add Jim Jenkins and Marc Masterson to the list of the good guys. I'm sorry to hear that Ozzie Englebart is dead. I was only 12 or 13 when he was transferred out but he usually had a smile plastered on his face.<br /><br />Jenkins passed on some years ago but I hope Marc Masterson lives a long and healthy life. I also hope he eventually sees the same light that Dennis has.charlie kierannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-1179045581834187462007-02-05T08:50:00.000+13:002007-02-05T08:50:00.000+13:00Kscribe said:<br /><br />Jim>>><br />Probably what God intended. He has to see how honest we are, despite the "who" which teaches it.<br /><br />I say self deception is the highest crime of all. If the root is rotten, what good is the fruit?<br />Think Herbert!<br /><br />Kscribe. <br /><br />Perhaps I did not make my point clear. My point was no human is relevant to what truth is.<br /><br />Herbert is irrelevant to truth.<br /><br />For that matter, even a spirit being is irrelevant to truth. If Satan speaks a truth, it is still truth. If God sends a lying spirit,<br />that spirit will still bring a lie.<br /><br />It is extremely hard to separate our opinions of a person/being from the accuracy or inacurracy he speaks.<br /><br />JimJim Butlernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-38322277920307279162007-02-04T21:04:00.000+13:002007-02-04T21:04:00.000+13:00ANON 4:21 PM,<br /><br />I would agree with you to the extent that all religion seems to do as much damage as the good which it is purported to do. However, our shared experience here is based on the WCG. I always find it curious when posters and bloggers on the various forums attempt to persuade me to lay off the WCG.<br /><br />Regarding the evangelicals, ten years ago I was telling people "Heaven help us if the evangelicals ever pattern their movement after the fundamentalist Islamic revolution." Now, I don't ever see them succeeding in this, mind you, because there are too many other religions here in the USA, and a couple of little documents called the Constitution and Bill of Rights. But, this does not keep the liberal cliches from bouncing around from time to time alleging that the Republican party is controlled by evangelicals. It is not, they are very dissatisfied with the returns which they have received for their loyalty, and if they ever did control the GOP, it would cease to be a viable party. Even with supposed total Republican control, they haven't even been able to get Roe vs Wade overturned!<br /><br />Really, there's too much "scare" rhetoric being bantered about. It has lost it's effectiveness, much the same as car alarms. When is the last time you saw someone dial 911 when a car alarm went off? The person getting in to the car might well be a thief, but everyone just covers their ears and says, "Oh, someone's alarm is going off!"<br /><br />BBByker Bobnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-224558662734697642007-02-04T17:42:00.000+13:002007-02-04T17:42:00.000+13:00George Bush is not an evangelical. He is a Methodist.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-58497529351697915472007-02-04T17:08:00.000+13:002007-02-04T17:08:00.000+13:00For all that doubt the resolve of the Islamic faction of terror, go to>>><br />http://www.herbertwarmstrongvideo.net<br /><br />Scroll down to the section called<br />~JIHAD~<br /><br />Kscribe.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-88451073345961413652007-02-04T17:05:00.000+13:002007-02-04T17:05:00.000+13:00Anonymous said... <br />"Not Catholics, they for the most part are not a part of this group. They as a community are much less political. They have matured. They were against the war."<br /><br />John Paul allowed the teaching by his bishops that AIDS was not preventable by condoms! This to his faithful flock in Africa. <br />The catholics are just as much to blame as Dave Pack and Osama for "Death by Religion."<br /><br />Kscribe.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-88007211362380530322007-02-04T16:53:00.000+13:002007-02-04T16:53:00.000+13:00Jim>>><br />Probably what God intended. He has to see how honest we are, despite the "who" which teaches it.<br /><br />I say self deception is the highest crime of all. If the root is rotten, what good is the fruit?<br />Think Herbert!<br /><br />Kscribe.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-54174027477327347912007-02-04T16:50:00.000+13:002007-02-04T16:50:00.000+13:00"Anonymous said... <br />1John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. <br /><br />9:10 AM"<br />Let us apply that to the Nazi party. 1Adolf 2:19>>><br />They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.<br /><br />Kscribe.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-64465693158185320402007-02-04T16:45:00.000+13:002007-02-04T16:45:00.000+13:00To Dennis...<br />"I take it at one time, you were also regime loyal as a member"<br /><br />All of us contributed money to the wcg and supported the heretical teachings of Herbert Armstrong. Our money went to the publishing of the Plain Truth magazine that led others into the error and pain of Armstrongism. I was a loyal member and gave what I could not afford. My family suffered and personally, I suffered beyond the monetary requirements demanded by a abusive cult. You see, I raised my kids in that godforsaken environment!<br />You also raised your children in this environment Dennis. After your experience with the Pastor General of the wcg you began to see the light of this money grubbing, two faced organization. Such an situation would cause any of us to question the legitimacy of any organization that treats human beings in such a way. Little Joe has Herbert's money, the money he stoled from us, the members. Money is little Joe's God. So be it. He got away with it and there is nothing anyone of us can do about it. Short of a organized lawsuit.......<br /><br />However, you participated in this organization Dennis as a Pastor. As a Pastor, you participated in the party line in much the way as I, the member did. For this I have already forgiven you, as you already know from past contact with me. <br />I would suggest to others here that Dennis has paid his dues. He is just like us. He suffered (perhaps less) but he gave his heart to what he perceived as truth. Just as you and I did!<br /><br />Kscribe.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-73154527681610733562007-02-04T16:21:00.000+13:002007-02-04T16:21:00.000+13:00Anonymous said... <br />BB wrote <br /><br />"However, I don't recall George Bush, or any of his cabinet members or advisers citing prophecy as rationalization for the war in Iraq. I can see where the little church people in the background might be interpreting Middle East events as such, but there's no evidence that GWB has intituted military action in response to what he sees as Bible prophecy." <br /><br />Our good president is and Evangelical Christian. That is his world view. His advisors include the Evangelical leaders of the United States. He has a weekly conference call with these folks. He does their bidding as best he can. <br /><br />The point of my original comment was that bashing the old WCG is a distraction, a red herring, the real damage being done to today's America is being done by Evangelicals. <br /><br />Not Catholics, they for the most part are not a part of this group. They as a community are much less political. They have matured. They were against the war.<br /><br />There is so very much blood on the hands of today's Evangelical leaders...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-28996626956898251702007-02-04T15:37:00.000+13:002007-02-04T15:37:00.000+13:00Ok, Anonymous. Seems like at least the Pat Robertson constituency is inserting itself into the Bible much the same as HWA did. One difference would be that Pat sees us as being Rome, and HWA considered Rome to be the beast.<br /><br />I believe that formulating foreign policy based on any manner of prophecy is misguided, to say the least, and outright dangerous in worst case scenario.<br /><br />I'm aware of the HWAcaca regarding the beast power and Germany, and some more contemporary interpretations, which see a consortium of Arab nations formulating the final resurrection of the Turkish (Muslim) empire, which had largely controlled the Middle East up until the early 1900's. <br /><br />In either case, the evangelicals (or any other groups) would be ill advised to involve themselves in any type of activity which would either promote or prevent fulfillment of any of the various interpretations of prophecy. That is because all such interpretations are based on guesswork, at best. People such as David ben Ariel, who makes it a practice to call Arnold Schwarzaneggar's office to see if he's interested in running for office in Bavaria, or Gerald Flurry, who continues to hammer the European beast scenario, are very dangerous. They, along with the evangelicals, may cause incredible damage, untold suffering, and massive loss of life by attempting to "help" prophecy along.<br /><br />However, I don't recall George Bush, or any of his cabinet members or advisers citing prophecy as rationalization for the war in Iraq. I can see where the little church people in the background might be interpreting Middle East events as such, but there's no evidence that GWB has intituted military action in response to what he sees as Bible prophecy.<br /><br />BBByker Bobnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-87107480351519486592007-02-04T13:49:00.000+13:002007-02-04T13:49:00.000+13:00Byker Bob said...<br />"What is the evangelical interpretation of prophecy, and how are they using it to shape Republican policy?"<br /><br />There is Pat Robertson, Jack Van Impe, Tim LaHaye and many less well known. All believe that Babylon is to rise at the end time, all believe that Israel will be threatened by Babylon, and that Babylon will have to be dealt with in some way. It is the nature of Christian leaders and Christian politicians to read prophecy and to try and help it along. That is partly how the nation of Israel was formed in Palestine. <br /><br />Pat Robertson writes <br />http://www.patrobertson.com/Teaching/TeachingonBabylon.asp<br /><br />"Ladies and gentlemen, we just took over Babylon. The United States is now in the role of liberating a country known as Iraq. It used to be known as Mesopotamia, the area of the Tigris and Euphrates, then it was changed to Iraq, and now we're there. But it's the old Babylon...." <br /><br />"How does the America fit in? Well, we are the heirs, in my opinion, of Rome. We have a lot of the Roman culture. Britain was taken over by Rome. Our people have come from Rome. So what has now happened? But look at this. I think it's very interesting. Babylon is the head. This is the first major empire, and it's gone all the way full-circle back to Babylon again. And who brings it back to Babylon? None other than the continuation of the dream of Nebuchadnezzar. We now control Babylon..."<br /><br />"What are we going to do about it? Well, we were discussing the matter of the so-called road map. Now what's going to happen now that this circle has been closed? We're back in Babylon. And this is the fulfillment, in my opinion, of that extraordinary dream that he had of these empires. But who finally crushed all of the empires? It was the Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God was a rock cut without hands..."<br /><br />Evangelical Pastors, almost without exception, rallied the faithful to support Bush's war on Iraq. They don't talk about it now. But the disaster was initiated and created with their council and blessing.<br /><br />The Evangelicals have done enormous damage to this nation and to the nation of Iraq, they share the responsibility for the deaths of 100,000s...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-37194220182803925402007-02-04T10:03:00.000+13:002007-02-04T10:03:00.000+13:00David Robinson's book?<br /><br />Name of, where to get it?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-12273747013872110342007-02-04T09:46:00.000+13:002007-02-04T09:46:00.000+13:00Dennis wrote: " still don't believe one can soak in the past ad naseum, and have a good outcome or positive existence in the present."<br /><br />This is an excellent point. In the future, we must achieve closure on this. But what makes this difficult to do is that many of the wounds we have received have altered our lives permanently. <br /><br />It also does not help that we know that ministers of this sort are in daily operation in the various COGs. I have heard some horror stories from Flurry's organization.<br /><br />And what is really distressing is that the COGs either alter history to paint themselves brightly or they have become deniers of history. They publish books that idolize HWA. <br /><br />It seems like somebody needs to be around to preserve the truth. We need more books like Doudna's and Leschak's. <br /><br />If someone could actually verify the charges in David Robinson's book, we might see the end of this.<br /><br />But I differ with Dennis on the culpability of the Armstrongite ministry. Though we may have all been under the toxic sway of Armstrongism, leaders always own greater responsibility.<br /><br />-- NeoNeothermnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-3164196341098124332007-02-04T09:21:00.000+13:002007-02-04T09:21:00.000+13:00It is certainly true that many, probably most, of the ministers in the Church of God have been, and are, too controlling, discourage members from thinking and expressing their thoughts.<br /><br />This fact has really nothing to do with most of the "doctrines" the Church of God teaches.<br /><br />These are two separate issues and although it is easy to link the two issues they are, in reality, separate issues.<br /><br />It does make it very difficult to "support" a Church of God when most of the "leaders" are this way.<br /><br />Those that do think, and are still with the Church of God, have in many cases done some deep soul-searching in HOW they support such a contradiction.<br /><br />There are still some in the Church of God that are honest thinkers. Probably not many. It is true, most are "true believers."<br /><br />Probably what God intended. He has to see how honest we are, despite the "who" which teaches it.<br /><br />JimJim Butlerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/17125354916042876462noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-44888034231699845512007-02-04T09:10:00.000+13:002007-02-04T09:10:00.000+13:001John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-53715384866446542522007-02-04T08:57:00.000+13:002007-02-04T08:57:00.000+13:00PSS<br />"Moreover, a WCG minister who finally became an atheist would certainly be less than competent over all in being a minister.'<br /><br />That is complete bullshitDennishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09976439820341436608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-20566654909983736522007-02-04T08:47:00.000+13:002007-02-04T08:47:00.000+13:00PS..You know I honestly wrestle with the idea that if I do let it all go, they (Tkach) will have gotten away with something. They actually did get away with something. Hell, they got away with everything. It's very difficult to leave it all up to "what goes around comes around," but maybe that's the point of the lesson. <br /><br />by "Speaking of incompetence of ministers, I would submit that a WCG minister preaching all that he did, no matter how compassionate he might have been and no matter how much he may have attempted to mitigate the harshness of his peers, was still loyal and supportive of the regime of the Armstrong Gulag. Moreover, a WCG minister who finally became an atheist would certainly be less than competent over all in being a minister."<br /><br />I take it you are not being subtle about myself as being on your incompetent and regime loyal list. I take it at one time, you were also regime loyal as a member, or were you always so aware of what you now are in hindsite? First of all and for the third time here, I am not an atheist. Agnostic, doubter, skeptic and spiritual in nature, but not atheist. Sometimes the most sincere, when disillusioned, become the most likely to keep looking. I am an expert in what I no longer believe. I am cautious about what to believe. I didn't come to wcg with growing up in it baggage. I was Presbyterian and accepted at another seminary when I went to AC. I am not convinced that I personally would not have had a similar experience in my own waking up to the problems of the Bible in either place I had chosen. <br /><br />At any rate, I can't seem to shake the "you were one of them" thing even though I felt like one of you working for "them" them along the way. I think I'll take a break and let you guys all work it out. I keep trying to break my addiction to looking back anyway, so I'll give it another try.Dennishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09976439820341436608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-53690773269936554832007-02-04T08:31:00.000+13:002007-02-04T08:31:00.000+13:00Doug, I completely understand your perspective. Perhaps it's the difference in how to go about alerting those stuck that it's ok to think and act for themselves. I'd say the same forces that kept ministers complying with administrators is the SAME force that kept members complying to the minister locally. It's a form of denial that runs up the whole ladder from bottom to top. It's after the fact and after our personal shit hits the fan that we get more awake, alert and bold to note, in hindsite, all these problems. While they swirled around us, we ALL had a way to perpetuate them, even if we now believe we had shit for brains..which I do.. and did.:)<br /><br />I still don't believe one can soak in the past ad naseum, and have a good outcome or positive existence in the present. At some point, I believe we have to let it go....not to save others, but to save ourselves. I know I have toDennishttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09976439820341436608noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-58436531039913567822007-02-04T08:20:00.000+13:002007-02-04T08:20:00.000+13:00To Anonymous 6:13 AM.<br /><br />Jeez-0! I asked an anonymous blogger a couple of questions fer chrisakes! I have no way of telling whether or not you are that same anonymous blogger, but if you are not, you have taken up his/her cause. Instead of intelligently attempting to address my questions in a measured way, you went off on a tirade, introducing all manner of extraneous and irrelevant topics!<br /><br />Can anybody else help here? Does anyone know what the evangelical interpretation of prophecy entails?<br />And, how this has affected the president's policies? I thought the so-called Neocons were Jewish intellectuals, and not evangelicals. Evangelicals have been complaining that the president does not give them anything meaningful, just lip-service.<br /><br />Alas! I'm still trying to make out how we got from Howard Clark to Islam and evangelicals in the first place! I'm thinking someone has an agenda, and was waiting to pounce.<br /><br />BBByker Bobnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-32352800127671450192007-02-04T06:15:00.000+13:002007-02-04T06:15:00.000+13:00Dennis: Are responses here something akin to the Stockholm Syndrome or Patty Hearst with the SLA?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-21942825969333681572007-02-04T06:14:00.000+13:002007-02-04T06:14:00.000+13:00So the self righteous, pompous, conceited, racist ass wants to write a memoir. Give us a break Jerold! No one CARES! After suffering at the hands of this jerk I have no intention of ever reading this pigs writings.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-72925508420026204752007-02-04T06:13:00.000+13:002007-02-04T06:13:00.000+13:00Thanks, Byker Bob, for opening up the can of poisonous snakes. Opinions run rampant in politics and extremes have their extremes. I hear, and mostly ignore, really crazy sounding stuff like, "A vote for Hillary is a vote for Hezbollah terrorism". It's crazy out there.<br /><br />I am also reminded that our illustrious president had Al Qaeda leaders over as best of friends when he was governor of Texas. And then there was the celebration of Ramadan at the White House last year.<br /><br />On the Fox News Network -- that bastion of truth, justice and mercy, reporting the news without one shred of bias or spin, had a bunch of guys discussing Islam saying it wanted to take over the world, while an Islam woman insisted that Islam is a peaceful religion of coexistence, at which point one of the guys pointed out Chapter 9 [or however it is segmented] where it shows that the goal of Islam is to take over the world by whatever means necessary.<br /><br />Forget AC of the Seventies. Forget the WCG. Forget the incompetence of the ministers and their inhumane treatment of the membership bordering on violating the Geneva Convention. Forget the Great Tribulation and the Place of Safety. Forget 1975 in Prophecy with Basil Wolverton's drawings he claimed was modeled by his wife. That's kid stuff.<br /><br />Between global warming, global darkening, radical Islam and weapons of mass destruction along with Democrats steadily marching against the gates of hell toward the White House [Heavens! Two more years of campaigning?], the Churches of God are just kid stuff.<br /><br />Thanks again Byker Bob, for an opportunity at distorted perception of hyperbole, which, unfortunately, just might have some basis in truth. But then, TV news being what it is, who can tell?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-35644355309715117842007-02-04T05:57:00.000+13:002007-02-04T05:57:00.000+13:00Dennis,<br /><br />Nonsense, utter nonsense. It's not hatred, it is a way to understand the experience so that we and others won't repeat it. I have identified "failure factors" -- that is, why did the ministers fail?<br /><br />Now you say you resent the bulk of the ministers painted with a broad brush. I would counter that the entire venue could not have existed without the Assertive Incompetence of pretty much all the ministers. Speaking of incompetence of ministers, I would submit that a WCG minister preaching all that he did, no matter how compassionate he might have been and no matter how much he may have attempted to mitigate the harshness of his peers, was still loyal and supportive of the regime of the Armstrong Gulag. Moreover, a WCG minister who finally became an atheist would certainly be less than competent over all in being a minister.<br /><br />Furthermore, I cannot yet identify another cult which like Armstrongism, as small as it was, break into 1,000 spit-off splinters in less than 20 years. There may be one, but even Scientology hasn't done that as far as I know. It is a fascinating investigation into the fear factors and rich in valuable information in psycho and social dynamics. Why did it fail? Why were the leaders so very incompetent? Why can't the splinters resolve their differences today and be one big family, if they are all so sure fired converted?<br /><br />Besides, these glimpses into the past are fascinating because they explain a lot about why the spit-off splinters are the way they are today. Today we have the same authoritative non Scriptural tripe that existed 40 years ago. Why is that? How is that? Most important to me is why can't people see how ridiculous the whole thing is.<br /><br />By posting what I post, I have the hope that those less versed in the horrors of the past will come to an epiphany, just as many have over at the Painful Truth. Without the facts and / or observations, some people would be continually enmeshed in trying to make their part in a dysfunctional venue work. I myself, owe a great debt of gratitude to Gavin to open the realization of who and what the ministers and leaders are really all about. I'm not absolutely sure, but think that my wife and I would still be attending United with their stalkers and fondlers without the knowledge that has been developed.<br /><br />Having said that, I know for certain that there are many good folks out there: People who do keep the Commandments, sincere, pure and dedicated to the truth, who, when they realize they are doing something wrong, do change. A very small percentage of them exist in the Churches of God. For the most part, they are of other segments of Christianity and even other religions. And yes, a few -- but fewer than I would have thought -- are atheists -- who have a moral and ethical basis.<br /><br />I too think it was a very bad idea to take youngsters, subject them to a hypocritical and self-righteous environment, and then set them loose on an unsuspecting public who paid for their education while suffering dictims handed down by them in an arbitrary fashion by those who practice a perverted translation of Proverbs 3:5 -- "Trust in yourself with all your heart, and lean to your understanding".<br /><br />The truth is the more "counselors" and observers you have to analyze the past, the better judgment you can attain. I've thrown in the good with the bad. At any old time you could pop on over to my website at:<br /><br />http://quietsafe.org/<br /><br />and get a dose of positive information replete with hope and recovery, totally devoid of any of the soil of the scrap of the church of Gods. It's a choice few of you make. Or you could read my book, "Assertive Incompetence" and predict what those in authority will do next using the tools provided there.Douglas Beckerhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05639275357879979640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-28426681.post-43489930133880169422007-02-04T04:53:00.000+13:002007-02-04T04:53:00.000+13:00Anonymous @8:13 PM:<br /><br />What is the evangelical interpretation of prophecy, and how are they using it to shape Republican policy? <br /><br />I'm aware of some extremists who have bred a red heifer, and I've heard of some Messianics who believe that the ten nations of the beast will be Arab nations with the beast coming out of Syria, but have not been aware of such beliefs influencing official foreign policy.<br /><br />Seemingly, religious beliefs have been responsible for many wars, although the deeply religious resent this being pointed out primarily by atheists and agnostics (me). Obviously the Muslim jihad is another example of this religion-war relationship, but how do you feel that US involvement in containing Islamic bronze age mentality has been influenced by evangelicals?<br /><br />BBByker Bobnoreply@blogger.com