Comments on Ambassador Watch: God Is Not a Supernatural Terrorist

Don't forget Mel, your life won't suck nearly so m...

2009-05-27T10:43:23.888+12:00

Don't forget Mel, your life won't suck nearly so much, if you accept Bob's supernatural terrorist into your heart!!! 8-O

BB, I apparently missed the back and forth you had...

2009-05-24T16:15:50.828+12:00

BB,
I apparently missed the back and forth you had, about whether there were there were atheist charities helping people in Africa.

The comment you made saying that only Christians help others wasn't made here on this blog. You made no mention of "atheist" in the sweeping comment I alluded to- just that "only Christians" helped others in need.
The term "atheist" didn't enter my mind when I read it, and I wondered why you would not acknowledge the good works of non-secular (or secular, other-than-Christian) organizations.

Perhaps the comment you made was made in the wake of that back-and-forth you had, and you were a little loose and unfocused with your words, in what you wrote.

I'm gonna have some ice cream now.
It's my small consolation since I've learned from you that my life "totally sucks"!

"I recall asking Corky and Aggie whether there wer...

2009-05-24T02:42:19.250+12:00

"I recall asking Corky and Aggie whether there were atheist charities helping the children in Africa...."

And since this post has fallen off the main page, you think that means you can get your last dig in, right BB?

I've already told you that there are atheist charities, AND atheists who contribute to (non-religious) charitable causes.

I've mentioned those links repeatedly, yet you keep harping on that as though it's your only argument against atheism.

You're a believer. Good for you. Just don't expect everyone else to believe the same as you, and don't view yourself as somehow superior to non-believers (you aren't), and your life will proceed apace, and you will indeed win the friends of the Christian promise, instead of the many and varied enemies, of the Christian reality.

Bob, thanks for the well-intentioned suggestions; ...

2009-05-23T15:52:10.011+12:00

Bob, thanks for the well-intentioned suggestions; however, while belonging to a church would be nice for social reasons, and it would be good to belong to a community in which it would possible to indulge in humanitarian service, I cannot do as you suggest because: (1) "communion" is just a piece of bread to me, and what they claim it to be seems to me both horrendous and absurd"; and (2) I am truly convinced that there is not a god who is actively involved in the affairs of this world nor listening to "prayers", so to engage in group praise would make me feel very silly.

When I say "I am happy for you", please do not take that to mean "I would like to emulate what you are doing". I would not.

Please do not presume all atheists are unhappy or "searching" for something. I am not. I am perfectly comfortable with the truth as I understand it, I am happy, and life is good.

Neither am I "sinning" nor "rebelling against god". I am sincerely convinced god does not exist. Although I leave open the possible truth of the Deist position (that a creator god exists but he is not active in human affairs). I am an honest, moral hardworking person with a wife and kids.

I'm not evil, rebellious nor envious of believers. I simply came to accept what I believe to be true, that we're on our own and have no god over us. Many people feel the same as me, although we mostly don't admit it publicly due to stigma.

The Skeptic

Prolly nobody is reading this any more, since it f...

2009-05-23T12:00:50.015+12:00

Prolly nobody is reading this any more, since it fell off the main page. But, a couple of quick things:

1) Mel: There is a lot of just plain absurdity on TBN and Daystar. It's funnier than Looneytoons! I try to avoid that, and to concentrate on the occasional nuggets and keepers. I recall asking Corky and Aggie whether there were atheist charities helping the African children, but it doesn't sound like me to use a sweeping generality as in making a statement that ONLY Christians were involved in charity.

2) Skeptic: I would not classify the church which I currently attend as being from a mainstream denomination. If you were to walk into the church, you'd see that the building in which we meet is totally devoid of stained glass, crosses and crucifixes, or any type of religious art. This church is loosely composed of individuals who are seeking a relationship with God. I, too, would have much difficulty in selling out to some denomination!

I would encourage you to go church hopping sometime! You might be surprised at what you find. Here were the needs which I was seeking to have filled: a place to take communion, a place to indulge in group praise, and a community in which it would possible to indulge in Christian service. Good luck in your search. If you look hard enough and pray for God's guidance, you'll find just what you need!

BB

It's always interesting how the "believers" - in t...

2009-05-22T09:11:05.377+12:00

It's always interesting how the "believers" - in their posts - almost always seem to come across in a superior kind of manner, sort of a "You-atheists-are-just-too-stupid-and-stubborn-to-know-God" approach.

But notice how they virtually always avoid clear, logical and non-circular reasoning.

And they virtually always avoid citing intelligible evidence that credibly supports their fantastical claims.

And their responses show that they don't even thoughtfully or CAREFULLY read the posts of those whose minds just do not fall prey to their luny concept of God.

"the point I am making is that humanity has a desi...

2009-05-22T07:31:49.945+12:00

"the point I am making is that humanity has a desire to know the spiritual. Ever single "atheist" on this board has, at one point in their life, sought it out.

Um, what is "the spiritual?" You mean like the supernatural?

The Apostate Paul

Biker Bob, It seems you are sincere in your relig...

2009-05-22T03:28:18.448+12:00

Biker Bob,

It seems you are sincere in your religious beliefs and I respect that. I'm happy for you that you found your "home".

Those of us who were not raised in WCG, but were raised in mainstream churches, have a different perspective than you. I was raised in a mainstream church and I understand their doctrines very well. In my 20's, after much study, I rejected those religions and accepted WCG. Now I also reject WCG and its daughters. I have attended regular churches on occasion since leaving WCG, and in a social sense it would be nice to belong to one. But I just can't do it.

But I'm happy for you that you can.

The Skeptic

"You folks really amaze me - you rave against foll...

2009-05-22T01:48:23.995+12:00

"You folks really amaze me - you rave against following "the world" and yet you have no qualms about saying things like "Well, most of the world believes in a higher power, so therefore it must be true."It is so difficult to talk to the atheists on this board because they have such knee jerk reactions to anything dealing with Armstrong and the WCG. It's no wonder they have given up on knowing God. When you get past the "be in the world, not of the world" mindset for a moment, the point I am making is that humanity has a desire to know the spiritual. Ever single "atheist" on this board has, at one point in their life, sought it out. They've just suppressed it now and chosen reason as their only guide.

Spirituality is built into our DNA. You can rail against it (like the "atheists" on this board), but their railing is, in itself, spiritual. That's how we are built and that's how, I contend, God created us.

Byker Bob, Perhaps I misinterpreted what you wrot...

2009-05-21T21:48:27.143+12:00

Byker Bob,

Perhaps I misinterpreted what you wrote, that "life totally sucks" for non-Christians.
It seemed you were saying so about everyone, and not simply speaking for yourself.

I do realize that you have not 'officially' joined a church, but while in this new Christian walk you are in, you've made some statements that make me wonder if you are watching too much Daystar or Trinity Broadcasting Network.
(Statements such as I commented on above, and others, such as when you wrote that only Christian organizations provide help to people in need.)

2009-05-21T18:25:27.214+12:00

This comment has been removed by the author.

"To my knowledge no other literature has ever been...

2009-05-21T15:24:40.542+12:00

"To my knowledge no other literature has ever been accorded such profound emotional attachment, on the part of its official scribes or transmitters, to accurate transmission."

Were you really in the church SJS? Because we did a pretty good job of that, ourselves, back in the church's heyday.

OK, maybe it was only just me. :-(

Mel, I have to admit that I was an outrageous clo...

2009-05-21T09:50:07.736+12:00

Mel,

I have to admit that I was an outrageous clown, and had a lot of fun as a non-believer. But, in retrospect, I have realized that I was not unlike the disruptive kid we all knew in our school classrooms, you know, the kid who did not feel fully invested or involved in the process, and therefore tried to shift the attention from what should have been the center of attention to himself? In this case, you might say that it was God's classroom that I was disrupting.

Now, for the first time in my life, Christianity has made me realize my responsibilities, my proper role in the general scheme of things, and the implications of my actions. Neither agnosticism, nor Armstrongite Christianism (if that's not using Christ's name in vain!) had provided proper schooling in those areas.

Agnosticism was too anarchistic, and Armstrongism always had a very bogus feeling about it, because there is no way the disciplines which they imposed could produce the results which they had outlined as being overts. There was a whole other subset of traits that the ACOGs produced. Those are the embedded stealth traits which many of us have spent a lifetime fighting.

Lastly, and it is difficult to make this point credible, considering where we all came from, you can't equate joining a particular cult or church group with having a deeply personal relationship with God. Those would be mutual exclusives, imo. A good, Bible-based non-denominational church can be spiritually nurturing. But, an authoritarian, all-consuming cultic group actually works counter to that personal relationship by introducing some things into that relationship which you really would not want. Like demands for total compliance. Or devotion to extra-Biblical teachings or theories. Or that you shut out non-members and you don't help them, you don't pray for them, and you don't let your light shine for them.

I've noticed that most non-believers on these forums equate Christianity with such cult groups, because that is the only solution to the equation that our background has taught. But, I haven't "joined" anything. I derive spiritual nourishment from an eclectic group of resources, and craft my relationship with God independently from such encumbrances.

I know, raise some issues, get a pageant! (Cue the Bugs Bunny music!) But, it felt good to clear the air. There are some people who think that the very act of becoming a Christian drops your IQ. Actually, such a drop would depend upon what kind of Christian one becomes. If your group teaches that mushrooms and strawberries are unclean, you're probably in a cult.

BB

Skeptic, I respect your honesty. It appears to me...

2009-05-21T09:12:35.367+12:00

Skeptic, I respect your honesty. It appears to me that the Armstrong experience must have been so comprehensive in its application of Bible to life, that when it began to show weaknesses, its more responsible membership had no choice but to abandon ship. This inevitably led to dissatisfaction with other Christian forms, and ultimately to rejection of the Bible itself. I'm sure it's an unhappy business to be left without an anchor for the soul, so to speak.

I have earmarked the internet references you gave me, and will make serious use of them in the future, God willing. But from that you know that I'm still a hanger-on to some traditional sources; and please believe that I hang on intelligently, insofar as my intellectual powers allow.

The references I left you in one of the posts above are not typical. Ramban and G. Schroeder were/are men of genius. I know nothing of H. Moose except that the introduction to his translation insists that honest scholars working from translations have no choice but to reject the Creation account -- because the Hebrew Torah is not ordinary literature and cannot be literally translated. He does accord with Ramban, Rashi and the Talmud, but to a limited degree because the original material is too rich to be handled in usual ways.

His "translation" and commentary is brusk, I think in places even crude and insensitive, but it does help to reveal some of the amazing potential hiding in the ancient text.

If memory serves, Deuteronomy has been handled a little differently than the other four books of Torah because it was produced differently. It consists largely of transcripts of Moses' lengthy speeches at the end of his life. It is therefore not a verbatim account of instructions given to him by God like the earlier material. It is concentrated, boiled down to essentials after years of experience -- yet still considered God-breathed because of Moses' towering spiritual and intellectual stature. His face glowed with the wisdom of Torah.

Torah will never be a closed book over which men like Herbert Armstrong can preside in authority. It is deliberately written to speak to each reader uniquely. According to the Kabbalists it is capable of insights of which not even God is aware; He has left that for humanity to reveal, and continue revealing, to Him. In other words, God needs us to fill up His own life, as He has worked to fill ours. The Torah is therefore not ordinary literature at all.

God speed, dear Skeptic. Your honesty is indeed refreshing. I think if you give it time and a long leash, it will eventually bear wonderful and immensely satisfying fruit.

Skeptic asked: "You can't make yourself believe s...

2009-05-21T09:11:51.665+12:00

Skeptic asked:

"You can't make yourself believe something that you know is not true, can you?"

Yes, it is accomplished anytime someone applies faith. Happens on this site frequently.

Mark wrote: "For all you atheists out there- most ...

2009-05-21T08:09:04.736+12:00

Mark wrote:
"For all you atheists out there- most of civilization believes in a higher power."

Mark, civilization also believed in a flat earth and a geocentric solar system for most of history - did that make it a correct belief? Numbers of adherents to a particular belief does not make up for the inaccuracy of it.

You folks really amaze me - you rave against following "the world" and yet you have no qualms about saying things like "Well, most of the world believes in a higher power, so therefore it must be true."

Byker Bob wrote that at least he's not "bringing e...

2009-05-21T03:33:11.928+12:00

Byker Bob wrote that at least he's not "bringing everyone down by proclaiming that life sucks"

But he did say that life sucks for those who are not Christians.

"YOUR LIFE SUCKS! JOIN US, SO IT WON'T SUCK!" is the mantra of many a cult.

To Jack Sprat - The widely accepted view among a...

2009-05-21T00:45:01.469+12:00

To Jack Sprat -

The widely accepted view among archaeologists and historians is that the books of Genesis and the Pentateuch took their "final form" c. 500-450 BCE.

Do you really believe Moses wrote the Toray, and that it is totally inerrant. Did Moses write "Moses was the meekest man who ever lived". Not a very "meek" assertion! Either Moses didn't write it or Moses was not meek.

I strongly suggest you see what the "Biblical Errancy" website has to say about the first five books. Also the "Skeptics Annotated Bible". Believe me, there are hardly two sentences in a row that are not contradicted somewhere else and/or just plain not true

The Skeptic.

Mark said, "You know, the "atheists" on this boar...

2009-05-21T00:27:01.017+12:00

Mark said,

"You know, the "atheists" on this board ... don't care and don't want to know God, because the carnal mind is enmity against God."

Mark, I can only speak for myself, but I believe there are many like me. I don't hate god and I didn't set out to defy god. I didn't choose to be an atheist. Upon realizing WCG was not god's true church, I studied and prayed diligent to find god's REAL truth. Unfortunately my studies led me to disbelief. It was not the answer I was looking for and it was not the answer I wanted. But the more I learned, the more the truth became obvious.

Honestly, I don't think many people really WANT to be atheists. It's much easier in this society to be a believer. But you can't make yourself believe something that you know is not true, can you?

The Skeptic

You have evidence of a higher power through creati...

2009-05-20T23:37:39.542+12:00

You have evidence of a higher power through creation. Once you believe that there is a creator, then we can debate the nature of God.

For all you atheists out there- most of civilization believes in a higher power. I am not talking just about believing in God revealed in the Bible. I think that if you were truly honest with yourself, you would call yourself agnostic.

"They don't care and don't want to know God, becau...

2009-05-20T16:49:17.446+12:00

"They don't care and don't want to know God, because the carnal mind is enmity against God."

Horse Puckey. You show me evidence of the existence of your god (or Zeus, Spiderman, leprechuans, ect) then I have no choice but to accept the existence of your god. That is what separates you and I. I am willing to change my view based on evidence (reality) while your view is fixed and evidence be dammned.

The Apostate Paul

Dear Skeptic and others, please note that I have r...

2009-05-20T09:45:11.336+12:00

Dear Skeptic and others, please note that I have reserved my comments about extreme accuracy for the written Torah alone, Genesis through Deuteronomy, not the "Bible." Here's a quote from a 1962 Bible dictionary.

"The New Testament is now known, in whole or in part, in nearly five thousand Greek MSS alone. Every one of these handwritten copies differs from every other one. ... It has been estimated that these MSS and quotations differ among themselves between 150,000 and 250,000 times. The actual figure is, perhaps, much higher. A study of 150 Greek MSS of the Gospel of Luke has revealed more than 30,000 different readings. ... It is safe to say that there is not one sentence in the New Testament in which the MS tradition is wholly uniform.

Many thousands of the variants which are found in the MSS of the New Testament were put there deliberately. They are not merely the result of error or of careless handling of the text. ... It is because the books of the New Testament are religious books, sacred books, canonical books, that they were changed to conform to what the copyist believed to be the true reading. His interest was not in the "original reading" but in the "true reading." This is precisely the attitude toward the New Testament which prevailed from the earliest times to the Renaissance, the Reformation and the invention of printing." (Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, Vol. 4, Article: TEXT, NT, pp. 594-595.)

Conversely, "The Torah has nine spelling variants -- with absolutely no effect on the
meaning of the words." (http://www.squidoo.com/torahscrolls)

My references to inerrancy apply only to the written Torah of Moses, the handwritten scrolls which by any standard must be acknowledged as remarkably uniform. To my knowledge no other literature has ever been accorded such profound emotional attachment, on the part of its official scribes or transmitters, to accurate transmission.

In Jewry the Torah is seen as DNA of the universe, something to which Jesus alluded when he said neither a letter or decorative mark could be removed from Torah until heaven and earth passed away. With notables as prominent as King David (Psalm 19) and Jesus (Matthew 5) acknowledging its perfection, it seems to me that one must at least allow that this is extraordinary literature.

For anyone too lazy to Google, Biblical Errancy. ...

2009-05-20T09:05:50.820+12:00

For anyone too lazy to Google, Biblical Errancy.

Excellent recommendation, Skep.

"A LOT of new documents, both scriptural and non-s...

2009-05-20T09:02:00.000+12:00

"A LOT of new documents, both scriptural and non-scriptural, have been discovered and analyzed over the past 40 years. You'd be surprised what it implies."

Many would also be surprised, if they were willing to step outside of their bibliomancy, at the picture of Middle Eastern religions a wholistic approach to all the texts written, can provide.

I say the evidence for God is both overwhelming an...

2009-05-20T08:15:00.000+12:00

I say the evidence for God is both overwhelming and irresistible."You know, the "atheists" on this board equate God with spiderman or tinkerbell or the tooth fairy, so it really doesn't matter what the evidence is. They don't care and don't want to know God, because the carnal mind is enmity against God.