Comments on Ambassador Watch: From the Presiding Plonker

Didn't Global disfellowship Meredith a while back?...

2008-06-26T12:02:00.000+12:00

Didn't Global disfellowship Meredith a while back? And before that didn't WCG give him the boot when he formed Global? Something like that anyway.

Now Meredith has disfellowshipped Coulter...again. Armstrong and Meredith shunned him together the first time. It didn't hold in '79; will it stick in 2008? Maybe now Coulter will disfellowship Meredith. Turnabout's fair play. Everyone chucking everyone else in Jesus' name. These dipsticks make Jesus look like a horse's patoot. Can anyone lower than Evangelist get on the excommunication merry-go-round? My goodness, gracious me!!!

Verily, verily, this is another sign, like earthquakes, wars, rumors of wars and string bikinis, that the end is fast approaching, nay, at the very door. Batten the hatches, mates. It won't be pretty.

Dennis,At least the High Priest of Marduk isn't as...

2008-06-23T10:45:00.000+12:00

Dennis,

At least the High Priest of Marduk isn't asking for tithes!

Nevertheless, it was a barn-burner of a good post! ;-)

"Years ago in my travels I met a member who'd stay...

2008-06-23T06:36:00.000+12:00

"Years ago in my travels I met a member who'd stayed in the same dorm at AC (Pasadena) with the minister who baptized me. He told me when I see the minister again, I should wish him a good fart.

When I passed this message to the minister, he tried to restrain his uproarious laughter."

Wow, that sounds like this might have been my freshman year dorm! First floor, Manor Del Mar, 1971-72...but probably common to any number of men's dorms at AC!

Years ago in my travels I met a member who'd staye...

2008-06-22T11:05:00.000+12:00

Years ago in my travels I met a member who'd stayed in the same dorm at AC (Pasadena) with the minister who baptized me. He told me when I see the minister again, I should wish him a good fart.

When I passed this message to the minister, he tried to restrain his uproarious laughter.

boston blackie said... Thinking back, it was a...

2008-06-22T09:53:00.000+12:00

boston blackie said...

Thinking back, it was all so simple then - No laptops, no Google, no blogs, no MySpace.com, no mass emailing... ;-)

...and no accountability for they controlled the information flow.

The saying goes, freedom of the press is for those that own a press.

Its only been since 1994 that the average person could "own" their own press on the internet, and the status quo has not been happy about it.

The genie of democratic expression is now fully out of the bottle.

Ok...whew....the previous was channeled in five mi...

2008-06-22T08:55:00.000+12:00

Ok...whew....the previous was channeled in five minutes from my archetype, Zule, High Priest of Marduk.

In all sincerity....I personally found out that I was not told everything about the Bible, between the ages of 18 and 22, I would have liked to have known. The place I thought would have known what to teach me, didn't know either. I had no idea at that age what a hornets nest I was walking into.

"Nevertheless, I hope all is well with with his pa...

2008-06-22T08:49:00.000+12:00

"Nevertheless, I hope all is well with with his parents (did THEY also, lose their footing when he left the church) and Nollie and Ron's family!??!"

Mom and dad, at this posting, yet live, and are still living in the home they bought in 1938 and are 91and 93. Every sermon I ever gave in the past I believed with all my heart, yet as any honest student of the Bible might find, there were always nigling and then screaming topics and contradictions that I needed to address in time.

WCG managed to reduce every church I ever pastored to nothing. I figured if they can go bonkers over Christmas, I can ask some long repressed questions about the Birth Narratives and Resurrection accounts in the Gospels and their associated contradictions. One question leads to the next and when there was no longer anything left to pastor, there was no sense being a pastor for anyone.

If I had started my own church..you'd all be making fun of me as in it for the money.

If I had stayed with WCG, you'd all be making fun of me for following the surprising God. (I would too)

If I had gone to UCG or Living, you'd all be making fun of me for selling out and being one of those bastard ministers.

If I went with Dave Pack, you'd say I was insane

If I went with Flurry, I'd say I was insane along with insane for going along with Dave

If I was the kind of minister Tom requires, I'd have no church, it would have no ministers and we'd meet in Tom's home with me listening to Tom unless given permission to speak.

If I kept my fascination with theology, bible origins, the origins of the text, the intent, the politics and how it misused to control people, and write about that, I'm bitter, fallen away and obviously all my life was a mere hireling no matter what.

If I have studied human origins and collect hominid tools as well as native american artifacts and don't find the Genesis account literally possible or scientifically true, I am a reprobate former hireling bastard, one of them, money grubbing Jesus whore.

If I notice the inconsistencies of Paul, his defensive nature towards Peter, James and John and his Cosmic Christ as opposed to the Gospel Jesus who he never met, never quotes and knows nothing about, though was supposed to be a contemporary Pharisee above all in Jerusalem while Jesus preached, I am faithless and hate the Bible.

Let's see, have I forgotten any no win combination? I'm sure that's about it for now.

I have been told that my problem is that I need to:
1. Give up my will (stay in the box)
2. Give up my intellect (don't think)
3. Come back to Jesus. (Which version?)

Sorry, can't do it. My heart can't adopt what my mind can't see. I did all from the age of 14 when I sat through a young Fred Coulter sermon until the last sermon I ever gave, 44 years later on "nothing's for nothing" sincerely and with all my heart.

Neither me nor the 35 members of my family who were full time ministers, elders, deacons, members, kids and brethren in the WCG lost their footing. They learned to stand up on their own two feet.

Tom: Biteth thou me...you Ponker.
(What the heck is a Ponker?)

It's amazing what a person will find himself/herse...

2008-06-22T06:55:00.000+12:00

It's amazing what a person will find himself/herself believing after 30 years or less! I knew the Diehl family back in the dark ages of Rochester, NY. . . and before I proposed to my wife, made sure she came to Rochester with me to hear the kind of sermons that were being given. (The WCG congregation we attended in the Midwest was considered somewhat liberal)

When we made the return trip, for one of the sabbath services, Mr. Pack or maybe it was Mr. Schmedes, wasn't there. So, Dennis Diehl who was visiting provided the day's menus. Wow, it was fantastic. . . my wife took pages of notes, as did I!

Even reading his posts today on this thread, and others, I find some insight that I can't argue with. However, if what Tom Mahon reports that this man no longer believes what the Bible has to say. . . & that Jesus is just fable. Hmmmmmmmm, I really wonder just how much intelligence that man really has. I guess that AC degree proved to be quite worthless.

Nevertheless, I hope all is well with with his parents (did THEY also, lose their footing when he left the church) and Nollie and Ron's family!??!

For those at home keeping score over the last seve...

2008-06-22T06:07:00.000+12:00

For those at home keeping score over the last several months, here is the latest tally:

Dennis Diehl 17
Tom Mahon 0

In addition, we know what Dennis looks like. However, we have yet to see the picture Tom promised us several months ago. We should award Dennis a couple extra points over Tom for honesty and integrity. Would anyone else agree?

Richard

"How much religion and how many organizations have...

2008-06-22T06:01:00.000+12:00

"How much religion and how many organizations have been born out mental illness or personality disordes I wonder...?"

All of them, Dennis, every last single one of them.

Didn't realize the record-keeping was that all-pervasive; I thought the member's PIN was only used to keep track of the amount of money sent in. :-(

DennisDiehl said...>>>if you compare (you won't) L...

2008-06-22T00:35:00.000+12:00

DennisDiehl said...

>>>if you compare (you won't) Luke's account of Paul's conversion in Acts on the Damascus road with Paul's account in Galatians, you will find Paul never heard of his Damascus road story except in Acts.<<<

There is no point in discussing any account of the bible with you, because you hold it in "contempt," which for you is a mild term!

Suffice to say, it is madness to continually quote it, only to pour scorn on its authority and veracity, without the least attempt to construct a cogent and coherent argument in support of your rather tiresome opinions.

If you can show from other historical documents that Jesus never lived; that the Apostle Paul was a figment of Luke's fertile imagination; and that Luke never really existed, but the name was adopted by a charlatan, who wanted to perpetrate a hoax on humanity, by persuading them to believe in the Christian Fable, then, those who now silently pity you, might erupt in unanimous applause and appreciation of your insight and erudition.

B-2 (can't make that 'to the power of' thingy) sa...

2008-06-21T22:58:00.000+12:00

B-2 (can't make that 'to the power of' thingy) said:

"Yes, definitely wrong and outrageously intrusive, I might add."

I don't remember any dossier's of sorts, but I'm sure some kept them. I always enjoyed telling the church my first sermon in any new church that I told the former minister, when we had lunch to make a transition, I didn't want to hear about anyone. I wanted to get to know them where they were now, not then, and wanted to be able to say 'if you feel you need a complete start over with yourself, church and minister, now's the time. I don't even know your name yet.' Seemed to always get things off to a better start with change which is difficult for all, or at least it is for me.

Besides, I didn't want the members from my previous church telling the new members dumbass stuff I may have said in a sermon or two..:) Same principle!

I grew up to these facts of church transitions once and how i wanted to present a change in ministry when a lady came up to me in one of my first areas, when I was coming in, and said "Hi, I suppose the minister told you, I'mthe one who committed adultery."

I took her aside and asked her NAME and not her biography.It really saddened me to hear how she had adopted the label for herself. I told her that only thing I'd remember about her was her name if that was ok with her. Greatest smile I ever saw!

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

well of course it's not an "identilee" trip around...

2008-06-21T22:38:00.000+12:00

well of course it's not an "identilee" trip around the Med, rather identicle.

Sintax and speling Dennis, 'common wacke up!

Thomas said once again as if he were more special....

2008-06-21T22:36:00.000+12:00

Thomas said once again as if he were more special.

"An introspective, penetrating observation, if I may be so bold to say so! But it only applies to those who have not had a road to Damascus experience."

And Tommy, if you compare (you won't) Luke's account of Paul's conversion in Acts on the Damascus road with Paul's account in Galatians, you will find Paul never heard of his Damascus road story except in Acts.

Like Jesus, Jeremiah and possibly yourself, Paul said he was called from the womb.. No wait, "from before the world began."

If you compare the three accounts of the event in Acts (you won't) you'll never be able to know, who heard the voice, but didn't see the light, or who saw the light and fell down or did or not. They can't all be correct, so we have an errancy problem right there.

After the Damascus road story, Paul hustles off to Jerusalem to meet the Apostles like a whipped puppy.

In Galatians, no such luck. He heads off to Arabia for three years, for what we can only guess. But, Paul being so special and "above his fellows" (hey, sounds familiar doesn't it?) probably met Jesus (not) and had him escort him to the third heaven to meet with God, but he just can't bring himself to tell anyone what he heard or how it looked.

Kinda like Dave Pack who knows more than he can share "at this time" with his church about amazing and overarching things he knows. Same disease.

I know, who cares...

However, if you do a study on temporal lobe epilepsy or the qualities of hallucinatory voices in the head of schizophrenics, you might be getting close. For some it's a dis-ease. For others, it is a revelation.

How much religion and how many organizations have been born out mental illness or personality disordes I wonder...?

I had a personal conversion experience on the Road to Greenville, if that helps...

Well, have to go now. I am taking a missionary, according to Acts, around the Med that is identilee to the one Josephus said he took right down to getting shipwrecked...Sometimes it's easier to have a story that is copied rather than really lived. Much safer.

DennisDiehl said...>>>(people don't change much ov...

2008-06-21T22:00:00.000+12:00

DennisDiehl said...

>>>(people don't change much over the course of a lifetime in their temperament and personality).<<<

An introspective, penetrating observation, if I may be so bold to say so! But it only applies to those who have not had a road to Damascus experience.

Dennis brought out the matter of ministerial recor...

2008-06-21T19:49:00.000+12:00

Dennis brought out the matter of ministerial record keeping. This insatiable need permeated every aspect of WCG life. Whether it was used for checking up on tithes, manpower reports, or the dorm monitor reports at AC, everyone knew everything about everyone! It was nauseating.

When I was at SEP the first year in Texas, I first became aware of this. John Robinson was my lead man during work week when we were assigned to clean the big tabernacle, including the executive offices. On one occasion, I caught John laughing his a$$ off while sitting at Floyd Lochner's desk. I asked him what was so funny, and he handed me a stack of disciplinary reports. Three campers were administered swats for "passing gas and causing an offensive odor" during a Saturday night movie. Apparently this was so earthshakingly important that they needed to document it, presumably so that it became a permanent part of these campers' records in the event that they ever were accepted to Ambassador College!

Imagine if during AC orientation week one of these guys had been called in for counselling and asked, "So, have you overcome your gas problem?" Or, upon graduating and being sent out into the field, a memo being sent out: Confidential from Roderick C. Meredith to Ken Westby, district manager, Southeast. X has been sent into your area. Use extreme discretion when assigning sermonette duty! X has been known to exercise very little control over a flatulence problem which has apparently been present from his early teenage years. Please also report to us any incidents which might occur during visiting program activities! Signed, Roderick C. Meredith, third under Jesus Christ.

LOL!
BB

DennisDiehl said...He introduced, I believe, the m...

2008-06-21T13:51:00.000+12:00

DennisDiehl said...

He introduced, I believe, the member visit cards that we had to write up. Not only was it a nusance, none of anyone's business and annoying, it was wrong and intrusive.

Yes, definitely wrong and outrageously intrusive, I might add. If memory serves, it was a short hop to the much feared member dossier/bio which kept a trail of activated, perpetual breadcrumbs in place for the next minister to follow and snack on.
I remember the huge sigh of relief felt by many of us when one pastor, upon arriving, announced that he was burning the whole lot of them. Thinking back, it was all so simple then - No laptops, no Google, no blogs, no MySpace.com, no mass emailing... ;-)

b²

Considering all the blood spilled to secure and pr...

2008-06-21T09:47:00.000+12:00

Considering all the blood spilled to secure and preserve American freedoms, it is hard to contemplate citizens voluntarily placing their lives under the autocratic authority of ministers, conscientious objectors all, who wouldn't shed a drop of their own blood to preserve their right to lord it over their eager, but Biblically anemic, congregants.

You know, I had not read the 1980 HWA/RCM letter i...

2008-06-21T08:54:00.000+12:00

You know, I had not read the 1980 HWA/RCM letter in years but I lived through it personally as a minister with RCM over Church Administration.

Aside from reading back into what HWA said to RCM from the perspective now of knowing all that followed in WCG, HWA hit the nail pretty much on the head.

I remember those days. I remember all the RCM comments of who he was and his position and all that , frankly, has not changed one bit, (people don't change much over the course of a lifetime in their temperament and personality).

It's actually a very sincere letter written to address what was how it rather was. RCM, like a Dave Pack, or maybe the other way around, are not people who work with people. They don't work for people. They simply have to be in charge and HWA is addressing what,THEN, was an impression RCM always gave and frankly still does. If the Board of Living tried to correct RCM for whatever, he'd start all over again with himself in charge.

I agree we should not judge the hearts of men. We, I, most here, do it all the time based on hurts and bad experiences, but it still hurts us more than those we lash out at. I don't like the quality in myself that gets stirred up at times.

Well, just sharing as I remember. At that time, having someone tell RCM that he is harsh or lord's it over people, was the Plain Truth.

He introduced, I believe, the member visit cards that we had to write up. Not only was it a nusance, none of anyone's business and annoying, it was wrong and intrusive. They got to be a joke among most of the men I knew as ministers and we often filled them in rather a generic form just to keep RCM happy.

I do remember on minister writing up a visit card for a G. Shephard, who he had to disfellowship for biting him.....

Can I interrupt this thread by asking if anyone ha...

2008-06-21T08:49:00.000+12:00

Can I interrupt this thread by asking if anyone has seen a picture of Tom Mahon on the internet yet?

"HWA also gets on RCM for having a bad attitude. T...

2008-06-21T08:36:00.000+12:00

"HWA also gets on RCM for having a bad attitude. This is so wrong. Only God can read the heart. If HWA wanted to criticize RCM's actions, that's one thing. But HWA was NOT God and had no business judging RCM's heart by bringing up this "attitude" crap."

To be followed by....

"These guys are so sickening. They may have worn $500 suits, but they were no better than low-life trailer trash. And idiots like Bob Thiel want to deify HWA and RCM. Pond scum, all!"

Ummmmmmmmm, maybe it's just me......aren't you doing the same thing here with the "trailer trash" and "pond scum" judgements?

I know some very nice people who live in mobile homes and swim in scummy ponds at times.

Regarding the HWA spanking letter to RCM in 1980.....

2008-06-21T08:12:00.001+12:00

Regarding the HWA spanking letter to RCM in 1980...

HWA probably said some very accurate things about RCM's shortfalls. But his letter goes about this in the wrong way.

Notice all the anonymous sources. For example, HWA says that "dozens of ministers would testify to that." But he doesn't give their names. He does this over and over except when he names Raymond Cole.

HWA also gets on RCM for having a bad attitude. This is so wrong. Only God can read the heart. If HWA wanted to criticize RCM's actions, that's one thing. But HWA was NOT God and had no business judging RCM's heart by bringing up this "attitude" crap.

This is no way for a Christian to chastise someone whether he is an employer, father-figure, apostle, whatever. Christians have to show a lot more love than that. These guys are so sickening. They may have worn $500 suits, but they were no better than low-life trailer trash. And idiots like Bob Thiel want to deify HWA and RCM. Pond scum, all!

--Publius

Regarding the HWA spanking letter to RCM in 1980.....

2008-06-21T08:12:00.000+12:00

There's a different take on tithing in the March/A...

2008-06-21T04:17:00.000+12:00

There's a different take on tithing in the March/April New Horizons article Tithing - Is It for Christians? at www.cgom.org

Give as you are able...anything else, any pressure, any sense that one is failing a God, is human manipulation. If your church or minister can't live with "give as you are able," tough beans. Stand up for yourself.

There's a different take on tithing in the March/A...

2008-06-20T23:02:00.000+12:00

There's a different take on tithing in the March/April New Horizons article Tithing - Is It for Christians? at www.cgom.org