Comments on Ambassador Watch: Journal covers Dean discipline

Go.

2008-05-15T22:50:00.000+12:00

Go.

Your as bad as Ronnie, I tried to enter a login an...

2008-05-14T09:44:00.000+12:00

Your as bad as Ronnie, I tried to enter a login and it blew me off! Same thing Ronnie did, when I emailed him.
Why hasn`t the Ronnie watch been updated?
I`m not a fan of his , believe me, whats up here? Run out of what?

Where's the Urim and Thummim when ya need 'em?You ...

2008-05-12T12:38:00.000+12:00

Where's the Urim and Thummim when ya need 'em?

You mean Liv Urim and Strom Thummin?

What a team!

Where's the Urim and Thummim when ya need 'em?

2008-05-10T12:25:00.000+12:00

Where's the Urim and Thummim when ya need 'em?

"Before each topic session three of those present ...

2008-05-10T09:57:00.000+12:00

"Before each topic session three of those present (not just elders) pray for God's guidance. When a sticking point is encountered the next three in the row ask for guidance. When there is still no agreement the matter is temporarily set aside."

Boy, it's tough to get a answer out of God. Maybe they should cut themselves and bleed a little.

'...Chairman Dick said the proper way to ballot in...

2008-05-10T06:57:00.000+12:00

'...Chairman Dick said the proper way to ballot in the UCG is for the elders during the annual general conference in Cincinnati, Ohio, to temporarily retire to their individual hotel rooms just before balloting and pray for God to direct their ballots...'

A useful approach is that used in the CGOM Conferences. Before each topic session three of those present (not just elders) pray for God's guidance. When a sticking point is encountered the next three in the row ask for guidance. When there is still no agreement the matter is temporarily set aside.

If anybody needed to have a lie detector wrapped a...

2008-05-09T12:18:00.000+12:00

If anybody needed to have a lie detector wrapped around his arm at Ambassador, it was Herbie.

Neo, To support the Kessler electronic eavesdroppi...

2008-05-09T12:13:00.000+12:00

Neo,

To support the Kessler electronic eavesdropping allegation, also from that link:

Several AC/WCG employees and ministers even related...that they strongly suspected their phones were being bugged. They have good reason to suspect it. According to the U.S. Attorney General's office, "eavesdropping" on telephone conversations is not illegal, since it implies the consent of one of the parties of the conversation and/or the owner of the phone. Ambassador College, as registered owner of the institution's pervasive Centrex system, has implied consent to eavesdrop on any conversation on any phone paid for by the college-and that includes all the Centrex phones in the homes of college and church executives. Technically this practice-if the college should choose to employ it-is beyond prosecution.

[B]oth Herbert and Garner Ted Armstrong have electronic eavesdropping devices in their fourth-floor office suites that enable them to secretly listen in on classroom lectures. More than one faculty member has been dismissed from the college under somewhat questionable rationale. The verification of such a listening device lends credence to the worst of suspicions.

Given the surreptitious tapes of telephone calls that have surfaced, including HWA himself, I find it to be credible.

Spying in the name of God, we read: "Each dormitor...

2008-05-09T11:31:00.000+12:00

Spying in the name of God, we read: "Each dormitory is staffed with a House Monitor, a Monitor for each floor or apartment, and assistants in each room.... These students are dedicated to the ideals of the college and to serving you.... It is your responsibility as a Monitor to get to know ALL the students; to help and encourage them insofar as you are qualified, and be able to refer them to the proper channel for guidance; to see that the students are obeying college rules... to write a weekly report which is due at the Dean of Students' Office at 8:00 A.M. every Monday; to check sign out cards and record violations; to turn in special monitor reports on individuals who have significant problems or who have made special progress. (p. 52).

This was the Soviet style of keeping control. Herbert had good teachers, Hitler, and Stalin. What a hoot! The old bastard really learned and applied this style of Gods Theocracy to his little cult of horrors! Now, I wonder where Spanky learned to rule with HIS ROD of Iron? Same old Nazi mentality. Like an old WW2 war criminal, these old farts never change. HWA interbreed more than we dreamed! He created totalitarianism masquerading as an religious empire. An empire that served HIM, old crusty jowl shaking Armstrong, so well!

Anonymous relates Leon Walker's comments: "Hotel r...

2008-05-09T11:02:00.000+12:00

Anonymous relates Leon Walker's comments: "Hotel rooms are perfect places to set up covert audio and video surveillance to uncover hidden loyalties or other political dirt to use to advantage. The classrooms weren't the only thing bugged at Ambassador. The elders should sweep their hotel rooms as God may not be the only one listening to their seemingly private conversations."

Well they would know wouldn't they?
In ministerial lore of long ago...

A high up official of the WCG once told me a story of a ranking ambitious Evangelist (not GTA) who once toured Japan with HWA, staying at the world famous, Frank Lloyd Wright designed, Imperial Hotel in Tokyo.

Another Evangelist (I assume it was a competitor) thought it'd be really funny if they rang up the Imperial Hotel staff and requested a Geisha for well known man of morality.

The Hotel staff promptly complied with a specimen of Tokyo's finest. The Ambassador Cultural Foundation entourage was of course, one of their best customers.

Armstrong and Gotoh had a permanent office in the Hotel), and they lived there during all Japan trips.

The story was the trickster saw the Geisha go in, expecting her to be quickly escorted back out, but she never came out until the morning. The evangelist joined them later for breakfast looking remarkably refreshed.

I wonder how that was finessed on the AMEX receipts?

Byker Bob said,"Aaron Dean, no matter what one thi...

2008-05-09T10:43:00.000+12:00

Byker Bob said,

"Aaron Dean, no matter what one thinks of how deserving he may or may not be, is going to be stigmatized by this for the rest of his life."

Two points: (1) It's encouraging to see a genuinely kind soul caring about Aaron Dean's plight. (2) I doubt this knuckle-rap can matter much in the long run.

None of the knuckle-rappers will ever come close to the experiences Aaron lived through. Who among them was a trusted confidante, 24/7, year in and year out, of the man who built their church and created their world view? Aaron will be fine. He's not stuck on himself, never was. He'll take it in stride and mend his ways if need be. He might grump and chuckle over a beer or two with his friends, but that's about it. If they wrongly make life unbearable for him, and keep at it, he might leave. The sun will rise the next morning anyway.

So the proper way to ballot in the UCG is for the ...

2008-05-09T09:03:00.000+12:00

So the proper way to ballot in the UCG is for the elders during the annual general conference in Cincinnati, Ohio, to temporarily retire to their individual hotel rooms just before balloting.

Another relevant quote from the Journal article:

Leon Walker of Big Sandy expressed his concern about clandestine "actions"...

Hotel rooms are perfect places to set up covert audio and video surveillance to uncover hidden loyalties or other political dirt to use to advantage. The classrooms weren't the only thing bugged at Ambassador. The elders should sweep their hotel rooms as God may not be the only one listening to their seemingly private conversations.

The Church of God corporate policy used intimidation to control, censorship of mail, lie detectors, spies, burglary, electronic surveillance and other forms of corporate espionage for
SPYING IN THE NAME OF GOD

A marine instructor once told a group of us young,...

2008-05-09T08:22:00.000+12:00

A marine instructor once told a group of us young, Army military police trainees,

"The Army MP Corp eats its own young."

It took me a while to see what he meant, and I can't help but apply it to Armstrongism, and especially those in power, from elders and deacons to ministers to those holding administrative positions. I suppose Party Leaders in the Soviet Union and China would feel right at home in the WWCG and it's offshoots.

The Apostate Paul

I was reading another Journal article entitled Uni...

2008-05-09T03:03:00.000+12:00

I was reading another Journal article entitled United Church of God council
condemns bloc voting among ministers.

Interesting. From the article:

"Chairman Dick said the proper way to ballot in the UCG is for the elders during the annual general conference in Cincinnati, Ohio, to temporarily retire to their individual hotel rooms just before balloting and pray for God to direct their ballots.
That practice, said Mr. Dick, properly focuses the men on the principle that their appeal is to God to guide them."

I ask, what the heck is wrong with it being discussed among the voters before it being voted on.
IMO, Dick is being WAY control-freaky. Is Dick suggesting that if two or more get together and discuss points, that God or the Holy Spirit is "outta there"?

Maybe it's left over resentment about discussion and criticism of the move to Texas.

In the FLDS(the polygamous splinter of the LDS[Mormons] that's been in the news lately), it's admonished that the members, especially the women, "Keep Sweet". This means to never question and to be totally submissive to authority. In fact, there's an emphasis that's the same, no matter what it is called, in most any cult.
Question what comes from their so-called "authority" and you'll have all kinds of names thrown at you, to say the least.

An example is Sue's testimony:
"I find it interesting that I was a lying no good busybody (according to those loving folks who posted) when I mentioned about Aaron Dean being censured. That didn't surprise me one bit. They were more interested in attacking the messenger..."

Another relevant quote from the Journal article:

"But council members Bill Eddington of Melbourne, Australia, Bob Berendt of Edmonton, Alta., Canada, Aaron Dean of Gladewater, Texas, and Roy Holladay of Chattanooga, Tenn., made the point that no one seems to be clear on what can acceptably be discussed before balloting. Bloc voting needs to be defined, the four said, and somebody needs to explain why it is wrong."

Loooooocy!
You got some 'splainin' to do!

"I had forgotten about Kessler's accusations again...

2008-05-08T20:21:00.000+12:00

"I had forgotten about Kessler's accusations against Dean. I do not know if what Kessler asserts has substance."

See here

Perhaps a new splinter is in the offing now.

2008-05-08T19:40:00.000+12:00

Perhaps a new splinter is in the offing now.

The more I read about this, the more I realize it ...

2008-05-08T18:27:00.000+12:00

The more I read about this, the more I realize it is all a case of ACOG sibling rivalry. I am sure that some would prefer to characterize it in absolutist terms, but the reality is that it's just a silly little trifling thing.

My greatest problem is that ACOG people never forgive and forget. Aaron Dean, no matter what one thinks of how deserving he may or may not be, is going to be stigmatized by this for the rest of his life. And, of course, this goes far beyond the normal stigma which most of us would assign to those in the inner ACOG circles, or sitting on the council of elders.

BB

All these teapot tempests in a shattered body once...

2008-05-08T15:33:00.000+12:00

All these teapot tempests in a shattered body once held together by the personality of one man. How was this the true church against which the gates of hell would never prevail? Was that to mean the church would destroy itself through infighting, making hell's interference unnecessary?

Catholics have done much better at holding together, as has almost every other denomination, including the Church of God, 7th day, which HWA once pronounced dead. Now Barry Kendall says, of HWA's former personal assistant, that Aaron is preparing the Bride. What Bride? Doesn't that overlook the eternal marriage of God to Israel?

Who is the bride Aaron Dean is working on? Is it the now shattered church that Armstrong built? Is this fractured condition Aaron's fault? Does his recent flouting the rules help or hinder the bride's progress? Perhaps there are two brides, one for Jesus and the other for God (since Jesus sits at God's right hand)?

Wearying, isn't it.

Who was Herbert W. Armstrong in Biblical terms? Have his labors prevailed? Isn't this all just a little bit nutz?

None of this makes sense unless the thread of continuity with God runs somewhere else. From where I sit it looks like Armstrong's one true church is no longer a river but a bunch of scrappy tributaries, each with its own inspired route to the sea of World Tomorrow.

If fixing the mess is Aaron's job, and has even an ounce of validity, then he'd best take the high road and leave the scrapping to the churches.

Aaron Dean in his earlier sermons, states he was C...

2008-05-08T14:22:00.000+12:00

Aaron Dean in his earlier sermons, states he was CHARGED Before GOD by Herbert Armstrong to -- "Help Prepare the Bride."

...THAT weighing on his conscience, it's easier to understand Aaron's conviction to 'Obey GOD rather than men'

Many, learning of this action will ask:

* HOW...does this censuring HELP UNITE & HEAL the Church of God?

* WHY...would any COG want to muzzle God's ministers and suppress the truth?

Perhaps there's need to REMIND some: "The WORD OF GOD IS NOT BOUND" !! (2Tim.2:9)

Those enforcing such shameful and unscriptural regulation upon God's Ministry - make Joe Tkach & his 'Pizzaz Boys' Look Good!

Robinson Memorial Church Of God In Christ?An Armst...

2008-05-08T13:36:00.000+12:00

Robinson Memorial Church Of God In Christ?

An Armstrong Church of God splinter wouldn't give honor to "In Christ".

There is a Robinson Memorial Church of God in Hunt...

2008-05-08T13:01:00.000+12:00

There is a Robinson Memorial Church of God in Huntsville, TX.

Google produced: "Robinson Memorial Church Of God In Christ, 515 Avenue M Huntsville, TX 77320 (936) 295-7702. Pastor Charles H. Greggs. Worship Services, Sunday School - 9:45 AM - Every Sunday Morning Worship: 11:30 AM."

Didn't a man named Robinson write an expose on Herbert Armstrong? Perhaps there is a connection. If so, it remains for someone else to do the research. Not my bag.

But Dennis -- Jesus was trying to convert a sinner...

2008-05-08T12:57:00.000+12:00

But Dennis -- Jesus was trying to convert a sinner.

Aaron Dean was trying to.... uh.... er.... well.... if they don't have the right church name, they might as well be sinners, right?

P.S. Be careful, you folks who want to ban certain people from posting here. They might go set up their own blog -- and voila, it's another split.

This just in:Jesus was censured today after he was...

2008-05-08T12:09:00.000+12:00

This just in:

Jesus was censured today after he was caught speaking to a Samaritan WOMAN at an off the track well. It was reported they talked about her unhappy marriages. God only knows what else they talked about.

Jesus did not take an elder or even a disciple with him for the visit which is strictly against sect rules. Jesus was forbidden to teach or speak until the Passover of 31 or 33 AD depending.

When asked for comment, Jesus would only say, "It or I am finished." :)

Kiwi,You probably are correct in that you have mis...

2008-05-08T10:59:00.000+12:00

Kiwi,

You probably are correct in that you have missed nothing important by not reading homegrown ex-COG material.

Interesting,maybe, but we have read it all before.

However, maintain your contacts with Ambassadorwatch.It is a beacon of enlightenment.

Seamus

In response to:"For whatever reason, the permissio...

2008-05-08T10:54:00.000+12:00

In response to:

"For whatever reason, the permission was denied. Mr. Dean then decided for himself to reject the policy and speak anyways. Any organization has to take action when its members openly defy its rules."

Notice the words; "decided for himself to reject" and "defy," very strong words to use in defence of an open organiztion.

Rather than use the word "ignore" or something else even more benign, they use words that are condemning even though there is an admission that he is still in good with the brass. This is a mistake. How many in this or other groups would or could come to the UCG if an open dialog remained? Has anyone heard what Aaron Dean has to say about it?