Comments on Ambassador Watch: HWA - Guilty as Sin

Romans 8:28 - And we know that for those who love ...

2009-04-15T15:51:00.000+12:00

Romans 8:28 - And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.

I personally knew (she is dead now) a woman who was raped by GTA in 1971. I was always so amazed how sunny and gracious she was. When I asked her how she could be so upbeat despite what had happened to her, she always referred to this scripture and would say God's love changes everything. She was a stunning example Christian charity.

Church Trek, your comments take several leaps in "...

2009-02-21T20:54:00.000+13:00

Church Trek, your comments take several leaps in "logic". I was in Tulsa before GTA left and Robinson told everyone to be calm, not to pass judgements and not to believe everything you hear. It wasn't until AFTER he was dismissed that he wrote the book, in which he alleges HE heard GTA make these claims. GTA has NEVER publicly said he actually said that. Using your logic you could jump to say that being that GTA was so furious at HWA for kicking him out, he would have been happy to bring such allegations up and vocalize them to anyone that he could convince to join his flock..but he didn't do that. The fact of the matter is, this is rumor that has always fallen apart when given scrutiny. There are numerous reasons why people don't answer charges, not the least of which is because the claims are silly, baseless or in the case, so pervertedly false. I mean really, do you REALLY believe HWA told Robinson he kept track of how many times he masturbated? The only wacko claiming this is Robinson. I was there in Tulsa, Robinson was a known liar and wacko.

Intriguing that RLD was a Robinson supporter back ...

2009-02-21T06:44:00.000+13:00

Intriguing that RLD was a Robinson supporter back then ... later on after starting CEM and its message board, fangs would come out if anyone mentioned this topic, on which the circumstantial evidence is clear as anything ever was. Who is to believe that an uber-narcissist like HWA would not have defended himself, loudly, vigorously and vindictively, if the charges were false? Who would believe that his son -- no matter what disputes he 'd had with his father -- would not defend his father's and his sister's honor, loudly and vigorously, if the charges were false? What causes a person to change like that? Why did GTA walk the thin line of neither confirming nor denying this, but merely hinting at "a personal, family matter"? (A matter too sensitive and painful to describe specifically, yet too obvious to continue to cover up.)

My problem is, I derived quite an education from WCG and CGI for eight long years and I had the luxury of deciding which one to join. So my loyalty was built during those formative teen years, not to organizations or to men, but to the Most High and to the truth. I took the message seriously! Unfortunately, some people caught up in the culture of these organizations made a choice to choose other loyalties than to the truth.

- David Harrell

Anon 10:47, 3rd party reports don't KNOW anything....

2009-02-14T10:04:00.000+13:00

Anon 10:47, 3rd party reports don't KNOW anything.That is why they aren't allowed to testify in court! They say they HEARD someone that claims they were a party to a conversation.This amounts to little more than gossip.

Anon 3:54, what we have seen is third party report...

2009-02-07T22:47:00.000+13:00

Anon 3:54, what we have seen is third party reports of what they know, and those who were never involved with them denying their testimony.

GTA's statement was made to one of the enquiring parties after the fact. Considering that party's background, GTA must have thought that's all he needed to know... I don't think there's anything to believe or not to believe about his statement.

Interesting. AW wants to believe third party hears...

2009-02-07T15:54:00.000+13:00

Interesting. AW wants to believe third party hearsay and believe guilt when someone doesn't defend themselves against ridiculous charges but they don't believe GTA when he says "All you need to know about my father is in the "Autobiography of HWA". It appears your true motives shine through.

"Sometimes people do bad things to other people. I...

2009-02-07T09:53:00.000+13:00

"Sometimes people do bad things to other people. It hurts, and it may not be fair, but it happens. There is no cosmic chess king behind it all."

Hear hear!

"God allows seemingly random events to happen, but...

2009-02-07T06:50:00.000+13:00

"God allows seemingly random events to happen, but then uses the bad events to turn around and to fulfill His purpose. He's a lot more complex than the human mind can visualize. The subtilties, in many cases, elude the human mind. Actually, all paths lead back to God. Satan probably gets royally pissed at this, but God actually uses Mr. Sneaky Snake for His own purposes!"

Interesting hypothesis Bob. On what do you base these assertions?

"The subtilties, in many cases, elude the human mi...

2009-02-07T04:17:00.000+13:00

"The subtilties, in many cases, elude the human mind."

Of course. You don't see the shrieking madness in your statements, do you? Of course not. By the way, I have a magic dragon in my garage. What? Oh, of course you can't see it. Or hear it. And my explanation as to why is, well, very similar to your explanation on how God runs The big Show. I hope you will apply your explanation to my magic dragon.

There is a very easy way to deal with reality, BB, without having to construct these Alice In Wonderland mental acrobatic dances:

Sometimes people do bad things to other people. It hurts, and it may not be fair, but it happens. There is no cosmic chess king behind it all.

Paul Ray

You could call many of Herb's predictions hypothes...

2009-02-06T23:01:00.000+13:00

You could call many of Herb's predictions hypotheses; what made them falsifiable hypotheses was sticking dates on them. [Yes, I know, he never set dates on events he said could possibly happen, but sometimes other people, in their enthusiasm, got carried away and stated things that could be mistaken for setting dates. But he said he never did it, so there...]

God allows seemingly random events to happen, but ...

2009-02-06T15:06:00.000+13:00

God allows seemingly random events to happen, but then uses the bad events to turn around and to fulfill His purpose. He's a lot more complex than the human mind can visualize. The subtilties, in many cases, elude the human mind. Actually, all paths lead back to God. Satan probably gets royally pissed at this, but God actually uses Mr. Sneaky Snake for His own purposes!

BB

"By the way, scientists all recognize that a hypot...

2009-02-06T06:02:00.000+13:00

"By the way, scientists all recognize that a hypothesis that cannot be falsified is worthless."

Yes, but this is "worldly science." Godly science is not constrained by beggarly notions
such as hypotheses, which are carnal, human notions and therefore, can be influenced by the Devil.

Paul Ray

Jared, I believe it is you who is in error. You s...

2009-02-06T03:00:00.000+13:00

Jared, I believe it is you who is in error. You state "For example, He does not allow Fido to die and yet simultaneously allows Fido to remain alive and cheerfully yipping at his owner’s feet." Yes, God DOES simultaneously "allow" both outcomes - and all other possible outcomes! The fact that God allows them does not mean they all occur! Due to the laws of nature/science, of course only one outcome of a mutually contradictory set of possible outcomes will occur. Whether "god" allows them or not!

Then you say "There are only some things that He allows to happen, other things He acts to prevent or directly acts to cause." Did you make that up? What proof do you have to back up that assertion? Forgive me, but it sounds like so much made-up BS to me.

Jared Olar said... There is nothing he does not al...

2009-02-05T17:30:00.000+13:00

Jared Olar said...
There is nothing he does not allow to happen.

Taken as written, your statement is wrong. For example, He does not allow Fido to die and yet simultaneously allows Fido to remain alive and cheerfully yipping at his owner’s feet.

Yeah, but Fido doesn't simultaneously die and remain alive. Or, do you think "All Dogs Go to Heaven"?

Jared Olar said... "Probably you meant that things...

2009-02-05T17:29:00.000+13:00

Jared Olar said... "Probably you meant that things that happen do so because He allows them, though even that’s not quite right."

Good parsing of the original (insufficiently edited) sentence, but your declaration that it's not quite right is not quite right. I like to pretend that an event is the outcome of an experiment intended to test the hypothesis "God allowed that to happen." In every case, the event is consistent with the hypothesis.

A tornado swept across a community east of here. Some people were killed; others were not. Neighbors attributed the latter to a miracle from God, but if so, he must have allowed the deaths as well. In another incident, a woman was paddling a canoe on a stream north of here. A tree gnawed partway through by beavers fell just as she passed, hit her squarely on the head, and killed her. Just as miraculous as the homeowners spared by the tornado. Consistent with the hypothesis that God allowed it to happen.

By the way, scientists all recognize that a hypothesis that cannot be falsified is worthless.

Jared, you also say, "It is not at all apparent that anything at all could exist if He were not even there at all."

It is even less apparent that God could exist if there were no one in the universe to imagine him.

There is nothing he does not allow to happen.Taken...

2009-02-05T08:42:00.000+13:00

There is nothing he does not allow to happen.

Taken as written, your statement is wrong. For example, He does not allow Fido to die and yet simultaneously allows Fido to remain alive and cheerfully yipping at his owner’s feet. There are only some things that He allows to happen, other things He acts to prevent or directly acts to cause. Probably you meant that things that happen do so because He allows them, though even that’s not quite right.

Life on this earth proceeds as if he were not even there at all.

It is not at all apparent that anything at all could exist if He were not even there at all.

There are other WCG retirees that live in Sun City...

2009-02-05T07:55:00.000+13:00

There are other WCG retirees that live in Sun City, but I never run into them. One of my geriatric neighbors has invited me to go over there to groove with the retirees at some dances, but no way am I going back to the boogie woogie at the USO mentality of the WWII generation and the WCG. I'd rather listen to Rage Against Machine.

The Mattsons would indeed be in their 80s. I never met them, as the Portune era had already been in progress for several years by the time I arrived at Pasadena. We'd all like to know what really happened, but it's probably best not to disturb these people in their old age. We'll know in the Kingdom, and that's soon enough for me. I don't consider HWA's incest to be a salvation issue, although in some cases knowing might help some others to leave the wrong path.

BB

Thumper, this is Anon 6:45 again. I just need to ...

2009-02-05T06:47:00.000+13:00

Thumper, this is Anon 6:45 again. I just need to express one more thought. You say "I don't know why He allowed this to happen to Dorothy". I can tell you exactly why He allowed this to happen. Because he allows EVERYTHING to happen. There is nothing he does not allow to happen. Life on this earth proceeds as if he were not even there at all.

Thanks to BB, Paco and others who checked further ...

2009-02-05T03:10:00.000+13:00

Thanks to BB, Paco and others who checked further on Dorothy's still being alive. (And yes, BB, her residence is certainly close to you!) The report of Vern's age of 87 sounds about right, assuming the report is a year or two old. I don't know his age in relation to Dorothy's, but I think that she must be 88 going on 89; I seem to recall that she was born in 1920. So odds are they aren't out-and-about very much. But indeed: if all that stuff is true, what a load to carry. Maybe they just found a way to get past it--the human psyche can be most resilient. That they are still together after some 65 years of marriage says a great deal, no matter the history.

Anyone ever read the website Common Ties?(Google i...

2009-02-04T23:04:00.000+13:00

Anyone ever read the website Common Ties?

(Google it. I ain't linking it to this post.)

There is a Vern Mattson currently listed in Sun Ci...

2009-02-04T20:10:00.000+13:00

There is a Vern Mattson currently listed in Sun City, Arizona, which agrees with a Worldwide News article of c. 2006/2007 reporting that Dorothy Mattson was alive at a retirement home in Sun City, Arizona. There seems to be no known report of either's death. There is mention on "google" of a Vern Mattson (which may or may not be the same one) who is or recently was 87 years old. The whole story through all these years must have been incredibly painful to these two persons in ways most of us cannot imagine. Although Dorothy's confiding in family members was the source of the story, it appears it was never her wish for the story to become public, which was the doing of others. That is probably the best explanation for why neither she nor her husband have ever spoken publicly about it. Who can blame them for remaining silent. May their final days together be peaceful.

Camfinch,Beverly died in 1992. In Googling Doroth...

2009-02-04T19:52:00.000+13:00

Camfinch,

Beverly died in 1992. In Googling Dorothy's name, lots of the incest related sites came up. One indicates that Dorothy lives about 5 miles away from me. Heck, she might even shop at the same supermarket as I do, and I'd never know it.

Is Ramona still alive? Supposedly, she lived about two hours from me.

BB

Camfinch said that he has reason to believe that D...

2009-02-04T19:18:00.000+13:00

Camfinch said that he has reason to believe that Dorothy and Vern Mattson "are still with us". He may be correct.

Issue #106 of The Journal (dated January 2006)stated - in an article about Gerald Flurry - that Dorothy was living in Sun City Arizona at that time.

It states, "Mr. Armstrong had two daughters, Beverly Gott, who died in 1992, and Dorothy Mattson, who lives in Sun City, Ariz."

I was one who posted that "...both Herbert and Dorothy are dead..." Maybe not. I thought all of HWA's children had died.

The fact that Thiel won't even consider the accusa...

2009-02-04T19:06:00.000+13:00

The fact that Thiel won't even consider the accusation (nor any other Cog follower) is because although they claim to believe HWA wasn't perfect (his 1975 prophecies being false), he COULDN'T have been a 'Preeeevert'. It is too sick, too gross, to sinful!!! Way beyond normal human non perfectness. These followers of Cog (Armstrongites) can on one hand believe he had a few human faults, but cannot believe something SO UGLY about the man they worship.

They won't admit they worship him of course. But they do. I Did! I KNOW about following HWA.

Just having this story out there twists their guts! They cannot believe they have followed and still follow someone who has done something SO Evil!

So....is incest a worst sin than lieing? Is the penalty worst? They can follow a liar, but not someone who is sexually immoral.

Seems to me sin is sin is sin is sin is sin.........

Thumper, this is Anonymous 6:45. Thanks for your ...

2009-02-04T18:32:00.000+13:00

Thumper, this is Anonymous 6:45. Thanks for your well-meaning response. However, the empty platitudes you cite do not help.
"Wheat and tares are allowed to grow side by side for many reasons."? Yes, this is a quote from the book you follow. But the book was written by anonymous men with an agenda. It has no meaning to me. What proof do you have that this is true? God's mercy? There is no evidence of a merciful god. On the contrary, life on earth is quite cruel and merciless.

He doesn't want to lose anyone? Says who? He certainly doesn't seem to be trying very hard to make himself known. He seems to work solely through charlatans who claim to be his ministers and enrich themselves thereby. They and you know no more of god than I.

You say "there are a whole lot of us who might never have studied quite so deeply, or sought Him quite so intensely, had we not needed to recover from the spiritual rape we suffered in WCG." Did you ever consider that those many hours might have been spent on more fruitful endeavors, which might have actually helped you and your fellow man? The time wasted studying an invisible god and a book written by men with an agenda is one of religion's biggest crimes. Wouldn't it be better to cast off the fairy tales, stop making up excuses for your god, and face reality squarely? Only in this way can you truly live life to its fullest.