The Painful Truth About The Worldwide Church of God

Email: Sweet and Sour
(Page 32)

(Mail from Kooks, Nuts and Loonies is on another page)


I just read your FAQ page and would have to conclude that you seem to be slightly mentally disturbed.

"I attend no church, although I do believe in God"

"I challenge you to prove to me that God has said ANYTHING.
But spare me any Bible quotations, because first you will have to prove that the Bible was written or inspired by God"

What are your grounds for believing in God if you don't have faith that he has spoken?
It seems rather foolish to believe in a God that has not talked to his creation of man for 6,000 yrs.
I'm sure that if God talked to you, that in fact you would document the time date and what was said. would'nt you?
Although if that happened today people would label you crazy. Ooops, it's to late, people on the net are already calling you nuts. (Based on research)

If you do not believe in a heaven or hell, then what is our sense of purpose? To live, die and that's it?

what do you think the destination of your deceased wife is since you do not believe in Hell or Heaven.

You make an intresting case study, I forgot to mention that I'm in the middle of obtaining my masters in psycology.
We are doing a thesis on religion and you should be happy that I have 10 pages dedicated to you.
By the way I have shared with my professor your site and email. His exact words "That boy need professional help"
He also said that your site must serve as a type of therapy for you since in the back of your mind you blame the Worldwide Church of God for the death of your wife.




I notice that you have not responded to any of my answers to your questions in my previous two replies to you. I guess that means you have no response. And, I also notice that, the more I respond to your questions with reason and logic, the more hateful you become, now calling me "nuts."

You wrote:
"I'm in the middle of obtaining my masters in psycology."

What a joke. You can't even spell the name of your so-called discipline. Looks like you didn't even make it through high school.

You wrote:
"We are doing a thesis on religion and you should be happy that I have 10 pages dedicated to you."

When you are done with your objective appraisal of the affects of cults on people, me in particular, send it along and I'll put it on a page so people can laugh at you.
I don't think I will ever have to do that because I think that you are a liar. But, being a Christian, all you have to do is let Jesus take the blame for you and you have nothing to worry about because you can still go to heaven. But me, being a non-Christian, who does not lie, now I am in trouble. Who needs the Psychologist here? I have a real problem with you "Liars For Jesus." You can't defend your fictitious beliefs without lying. Now there would be a really good thesis for you or "we" (since you are doing "YOUR" thesis with some other "WE"): you could even study yourself. You didn't even read my FAQ and you got 10 pages on me? You are a Christian joke. Jesus is just so proud of you. You are so aptly named.

You wrote:
"in the back of your mind you blame the Worldwide Church of God for the death of your wife."

Not at all. She would have died anyhow. Her death was all the more painful, though, because of the hypocritical teachings of the Herbert W. Armstrong and the Worldwide Church of God.

You wrote:
"what is our sense of purpose? To live, die and that's it?"

Better to live a good life now than to give up this life for a fictitious promise of a life after death.

You wrote:
" What are your grounds for believing in God if you don't have faith that he has spoken?"

I don't think you have really read my FAQ page. Try looking through your 10 pages of research on me.

You wrote:
"people on the net are already calling you nuts."

They can call me what they want, doesn't make it true. Just get my url right. People can make up their own minds about whether I am crazy or not. You called me an atheist without even reading my pages to find out what I believe.

Here is a good idea for your real "thesis," once you get out of high school, or is that grade school?

Real thesis: "Why do Christians think it is okay to lie to defend their faith?"

How many steps is it from lying to killing someone to defend the faith? Not many I would say because many of you Christians have very easily justified "killing for Jesus." Witness the Crusades and the Inquisition.

Here is another really good idea: Have a study done on which of us is dysfunctional here. Am I the crazy one because I do not accept the Bible as God's Word, since it is riddled with inconsistencies and contradictions and downright errors, and I think that any perfect being would be appalled to be associated, in any way, with such an imperfect book? Does that make me crazy?

Or, are those who do believe this book is divinely inspired and its Fairy Tales are true, such as God killing off all living things but saving some humans and a whole bunch of animals on an Ark, all less than 5000 years ago; or God giving directions to a man to kill his son as a test of his loyalty to Him. Those people are put in jail or executed these days. Why aren't they believed, but some old guy in an ancient book of other fairy tales is believed and revered as a patriarch? Just because everybody else believes it? And how many teenage mothers have given "virgin" births? More than one named Mary, 2004 years ago. Or how about people that worship and make a god out of a man that they cannot prove ever existed? Or they believe that a serpent talked. Or the whole creation was made in 6 days. Or they believe the sun stood still, when it is the earth that revolves, not very scientific there, but it is just as preposterous to believe that the earth stood still. I guess I am the crazy one.

The bible teaches the denigration and subjection of women but I do not believe that. That makes me crazy.

The God of the Bible sanctioned and even instituted slavery, but I feel it is evil. I am the crazy one.

Jonah was swallowed by a fish, a donkey spoke, a stick turned into a snake. I guess if I do not believe these things, that you do, I am the crazy one.

Anybody who looks into the Bible and comes out believing that God inspired it keeps his "faith" only by subverting his own reasoning and denying reality. But I am the one who is crazy!

If a person rejects logic, evidence, science, and reason, as most Christians do, who is crazy?

I think people that ruin other people's lives, for money, ought to be responsible for the harm they have done regardless of the claim that they are God's representatives and therefore immune to that responsibility, contrary to their supposed Savior's teaching, and that makes me crazy.

I could go on and on but why bother? I'll take my brand of "crazy" over your and your so-called "professor's" brand of "sanity" any day.

Your latest message should, by rights, go on my hatemail page but since we started out on the regular email pages, this one will remain with the people that can write email without attacking and calling names. Maybe this proves that I really am crazy. Better ask your fake professor


Hello John,
Just read your article on Loyalty. It is great! It says so much. Now with
all the examples you cited, how can there be any excuse? I know
psychologically some will always be PREY to those who offer the "Paradise"
and immortality theme, and follow the smooth, silver-tongued leaders. Many
who have not been TAUGHT how to THINK will follow to their own dismay, or
demise! How well WE all understand it(?) sometimes I don't think very well
at all. It is like tripping on the proverbial rock in the road and never
looking back to see what happened.

I found that many stay frozen in time after they leave wwc and have learned
the truth. Some look into the teachings, most do not and stay detached from
organized religion, yet hold on to hwa's teachings. What they haven't done
is LEARN what drew them there and how NOT to repeat the same mistake. Many
go on and are led into another cult. They just do not understand what it is
all about. History does indeed repeat itself if we haven't learned from it.

To use one obvious example, among many, is Ernest Martin. He changes a few
things, appears to be setting us free, only to CON-join us to HIS Cultic
teachings. I thank him for the links he offered me to get out, however when
I saw and heard a REPEAT of the CULT-TALK and CONvincing words, JUST LIKE
HWA!!! boy did I leave him in the dust. He was a stepping stone for me for
more explorations. Then there is the one who exposed all hwa's sins in his
PROPHECY FLASH, then went on to continue the legalistic teachings as though
they were the God ordained Truth!.. When I wrote him I thanked him for the
courage to openly expose hwa and all the dirt, then I asked him how he could
believe such a person's teachings could have been true? He never answered
me, but he put my thanks in the next newsletter, and omitted my question!
That told me a lot! Some wise sayings in the bible are true and worthy, such
as "YOU SHALL KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUITS!!! When will we begin to look and
search out as much as we can before getting hooked again. Blind faith and what??

Another question I would like to pose to you and any readers, What would YOU
say to someone who told YOU it was your fault you were brainwashed!?? I'd
love to hear from our PT readers and see some responses. Thanks again for
the insight and sharing your articles with us. At least we are helping each

Salutations! Joanne


 Thanks to Dana for sending HWA's thinking on the sins of the ministry.

It is so revealing of his utter hypocrisy, because any lay member (that is, one who didn't have inside connections or knowledge of dirt in the higher echelons) who committed adultery or other egregious sins would NOT be given such leeway, and would be at least suspended from church attendance until there was "evidence of repentance." And such a person might be disfellowshipped on the spot.

But ministers, those "men of God," obviously are MORE TEMPTED to sin than we peons were, and therefore must be given different consideration! What a truckload of bovine colon-blast! It is very likely that this Herb-hooey was written just as the sexual escapades of his son were beginning to get notice beyond the most inner circle; Al Carrozzo was already aware of "Ted's problem," and so probably others were as well. (Not to mention scores of victims of Ted's predations.) HWA had to strike fast, and so out came this apologetic for a double standard in policy.

Boinked yet again!


 Dear Christian,

This e-mail is in response to your comments to Ed on the Painful Truth site.

We are to expose the evil works of darkness. The Painful Truth site is just telling the truth like it was and is. In WWCg, you see, we were conditioned (read BRAINWASHED) to never look at the "negative" and always keep a "good attitude" thus, denying the reality of the situation, and thus lying to ourselves. That certainly is not "Christian". To lie to ourselves, and then once we are conned we can lie with impunity. But, my dear "Christian" that is what we took righteous haughtiness in doing, being like the bird with its head in the sand...never looking the truth in the face. You see, "Christian" the real truth hurts, it is dark and ugly and nasty, and evil. It is the Painful Truth. No "Ed" or "we" that write to the Painful Truth web site and contribute are not negative, we take great glee (happiness) in exposing the evils of the now dead HWA and the WWCg.

Now you ask "WHAT WOULD JESUS DO?" Well, that seems very elementary. Jesus would throw the money changers out of HIS temple. He would expose the evil. Jesus would tell the truth. Jesus would not honey coat things, but he would say it like it is and was. Jesus would not care if the evil one was dead, buried, rotting or sitting in front of him, Jesus would tell the Painful Truth!!!


 This post is in response to the question posed by Joanne.

First of all, if someone tells you such a thing as it was YOUR fault that you were brainwashed, the first thing I would remind MYSELF of is that most people are very ignorant of cults, and brainwashing and mind control.

Most people are very frightened of what they are ignorant of and the unknown. Cults and cult information in general is highly misunderstood and feared by the general public.

Now to brainwashing. If YOU can be brainwashed and I know you and you seem like a nice normal human being, it terrifies me to think that maybe I TOO could be brainwashed. So if I put the blame on the victim, then I feel better. In general the regular person on the street thinks that HE is ABOVE AND SMARTER THAN most and CAN'T BE BRAINWASHED! Therefore, if YOU got brainwashed, it must be YOUR fault. The truth? The Painful ugly Honest to God Truth, is that anyone can be brainwashed, except the mentally ill. The more normal you are, the easier it is to brainwash you.

To directly answer the question of what I would say to that person, I would inform them of some of the realities of mind control and brainwashing and challenge them to learn more before they opened their mouths to me again. I would offer all kinds of information for them to obtain, and I would not allow them to continue to insult me with their un-intellectual drivel.

I will be writing more on the subject of mind control and brainwashing soon and posting it to the Painful Truth web site.



Good one! I know a lot of people do feel guilty over falling for HWA's line, but he was a very clever trapper and he worked hard to build fences around his victims. Anyone who was lonely, lost, vulnerable, or disillusioned was nothing but a helpless sheep beneath his ravenous fangs.

The man was a predator of the worst sort.

I know several people who have beaten themselves up for ever falling for his lies. I know even more people who can't face the truth--that he actually was lying--because to admit that means they wasted all those years they devoted to his cause. Unable to face that naked fact, they refuse to believe the truth about this predator who devoured them and their children, and they are still in the Worldwide Church of God or (even more likely) one of the HWA-look-alike spin-offs. Instead of salvaging what can be saved, they have condemned themselves (and often their families) to a life sentence.

Talk about addiction! No alcoholic was ever any more helpless before his drug than these people are before HWA's religion. The first step toward recovery (from anything) is to admit you have a problem. Too many people can't.

Good one, Joanne. Keep 'em coming!

John B.

 Greetings to All:

 I would like to share something, and at the same time get some information.

 In 1986 I was Baptized in the Worldwide Church of God and in 1994 I joined the Philadelphia Church of God. I was suspended about 6 months ago because I proved to myself that there is no statement anywhere in the Bible where we have give 10%, 20%, or 30% of our wages to "the work." There is a lot more to this story which brought me to this point. I could write a book! Everything that goes against the Bible was being done in this area in NH. Backbiting, gossip, false witness, etc. I was becoming sick of it all. I would talk to the minister but nothing would ever come of it.

 Then, every mistake I would make or when I would question in a friendly, fellowship manner on truth, it would get back to the minister. The minister would call me and chew me out. Everything he was saying was blown way out of proportion. (By the way, we would hold services in my home.) Come to find out, two of my family members were giving false witness against me to the minister.

 Well, when I stopped tithing, I told those two family members, and a few other things too. It didn't take the local pastor and the minister long to arrive at my door . I should say "distant," they lived 400 miles away. They did not come to work out problems and get things running smoothly. Well, you know the rest of the story. I was given the third degree.

 I would quote Scripture to these two men and they would say nothing but continue their accusations with their opinion that it was a large sin to stop tithing. They didn't even have their Bibles with them. They could not defend themselves. I asked them to bring my accusers before me, which is my right, but they refused. I'm glad they suspended me. Now I can get back to caring for all mankind and not just a select group.

 But, for me to start healing from this mental misuse I need help in proving that the so called Churches of God are false in their teaching. I have proved some things to myself already. It seems that all of them are in a power struggle to make merchandise of the sheep. The thing that makes most sense in their teaching is that we must prove all things. If possible I would like to receive documentation.

Thanks, Rick



You may have noticed, if you have read much of my website, that I do not believe that God is the author of or has anything to do with the Bible. See my Bibliolatry page. Once you take away the authority of the Bible then these little cult-masters fall very easily. They rely on the brain-dead, unswerving, un-proving, bible believer, members for their support.

Quit reading the bible. Read about the bible. You will learn a lot.




How does it feel to be so bitter. I can somewhat empathize with you asI have a family member in one of the splinter groups, however, I don't agree with your uncompassionate way of doing things. Whatever I say won't matter to you just like what you say doesn't matter to a die-hard person in "The Truth." I can only say in response to what you do, which you obviously feel is your civil deed, that those people who are members (you would call victims) would never print the trash that you print about them. Of course that Doctrine has it's flaws, probably hundreds, but I will say this: if there is a truth about a God, there is no other God that I would rather believe in than the one Mr. Armstrong has explicitly defined. I can say I am probably as spiritually confused as anybody else about humanity's purpose and destiny. I have considered Mr. Armstong's theology, but never accepted it completely. I pray that he was right in terms of the overall purpose and reason for existence. I hope his definition and characterization about God is correct, because I could never imagine a more wonderful God than that. I can't conceive of a God who allows people to suffer for eternity in hell, or a God that would create us to only know this pitiful earth full of suffering and never give us a chance to know anything better. I can't say that I have faith in all that, but I do pray and hope it to be true. I have also seen first hand how that church has given people who are at the low end of the totem pole in terms of societal status, be given a chance to feel dignity and acceptance others around them. I have seen people who would probably never have hope for anything on this earth or for anything eternal, be given so much hope that they can push through life with a piece of mind that I only wish to have. You would probably call it false hope, but who are you to say what it is? I have seen families take there kids on vacation for a week every year who compared to other families from equivalent socioeconomic levels wouldn't even dream of such a thing all because of %10. I think it is wonderful for a kid who would have probably never seen the ocean get to, because of 10%. So I laugh as I browse through your site and see you pretend to have as many answers as those you chastise for deceiving others. In my case, you have accomplished what you set out to do in many ways because I have certainly become more distant from that church and that theology than my father ever wished I would. I will never look at Herby the same again. Maybe it is for the better. Maybe your website was the means of bringing Herby down to a more human plane for me. Maybe I don't revere him the way I use to, but I still love him as a human the way I use to. Now I just see that he was tremendously flawed like everybody else. If there is a God and he does deal with the weak, why wouldn't he choose one of the weakest to lead his church. I might believe that as much as you do, but I also know God's motives about as much as you do. Nevertheless, I still love his theology for being the root of my fathers quest for overcoming his alcoholism, which caused me and my family so much pain. Hence, I was at least able to enjoy a sober father for the last six years of my adolescence. All because "Mr. Armstrong made sense."




Thanks for your kind and thoughtful Christian message.

All I can say is that I can lead you to the truth (As I perceive it.), I can't make you drink it.

Religion is a drug. If you are happy with your drug, fine.

I prefer reality to drugs. Just say NO to religion.



Ever think about starting a web page about children who died because their Worldwide Church of God parents wouldn't let them have the necessary medical attention?

Name Withheld


 I would do that, but would need one to start it off.

Just before I left the church there was a church family in the Appleton, WI area that had been to court because their child had died when the parents washed his/her mouth out with soap for saying a "bad" word. I don't think they went to jail or anything. At least we never heard about it.




I have a personal story to tell but it is just too difficult at this time. Plus I don't know if I have all of the facts straight. That will take some digging that I'm not positive I really want to do.

I know a family in Worldwide Church of God in what used to be the Richland Center Wis. area that had a daughter die of spinal meningitis back in the mid 60's. I don't remember the girl's name.

Name Withheld


 I understand and sympathize with you. I think that is why pages like my Suicide page do not get the volunteer input that I know is out there. It is just too painful.

Best, Ed


Hi John,

I am so glad you got back to me. After I went on and wrote the "Brainwashed.." article, I hoped that it would not offend you. Reading between the lines I knew that you were not taking all the "blame". However, your words twice were "Totally my fault.......I accept total responsibility"...So I took that and thought, "Hmmm, does he really believe that, if so, how many others still hang on to that self-blame". That is how I proceeded, I am sorry if it gave you the impression it did. I think you have done a good job of showing others through your stories that you despise having been part of the "Programmed Deception" and have accepted full responsibility for what you know is yours. I commend you for standing up as you do!

 There are many many who know the truth and still go on to cover up and lie to save their own skin and future. They definitely do not accept what they have done to thousands plus people. The damaged people and destroyed lives. At times I do wish there was a JUDGE waiting to flash before their eyes in the heavens all that was done in the name of God.

 So thanks John for writing me and clarifying you point, not for me, for our readers. I also will continue to look for your comments, and "critique" as we need this. One more note, the latest piece "Time Is Short". Good job as always you cover a lot of territory and give us all much to think on. Thanks for that!

My best to as always, Joanne

 Dear Ed,

 I am sorry it took so long to get back to you ---However.....

 In all honesty I write to you, I came upon your page by searching for some biblical truths and wow -I came on to your page. At first -I was skeptical to believe anything you said but, in looking into this further , and having an open mind I realize that most everything you say is the Painful Truth. We left Worldwide Church of God -on our own! :) This was like maybe 10 years ago or longer before their so called apostasy happened -Like you I always wanted to know the truth of God & be in the right church. The daughter churches are much like them also, but I think more intimidating ! PCG wants you to read their books & be perfect before you can go to their church. Where does the Bible state that! :) I was never baptized when going to WWCG ( For reasons unknown to me at the time ) I think I knew in my mind something was wrong. In PCG you have to be there for 6 months before you can be baptized ! -----Does that what it says in the Bible No-way!

 I am a nice kind person its the way I have been all my life, not a stupid person, but not a scholar either! I have accomplished many things in my life I just feel they took away a lot of my life where I could have excelled better at! They did teach some good things! Of course all organized groups do.

 I will never join an organized group again! I found many discrepancies in the WWCG! But what ever some one does in their life they eventually pay for it!

 I feel so bad for all these people that gave there tithes 1st 2nd and 3rd to the Church , living a life in poverty -while all the ministers became rich! And the ministers were never there to help these people!

 I wish to remain Anonymous ---But you can e-mail me and I will respond to you ! Hoping to hear from you!

 Your friend , Judy



 Thanks for your message.

 Good to hear that you smart enough to escape on your own. Just be careful you don't get into something else. Those of us that were really burned, learned a very hard lesson. Regards,



 Dear Ed,

 Thanks for the response back. I know now -I will question everything -We really do not want to get into an organized religion anymore. The funny thing is that all the churches that are of the offshoot of WWCG believe the same things --But they won't unite because every one wants to be in charge. A big money maker! ( Do you know how many offshoots are out there now? ) Not that it really matters to me but I was just wondering if its in the hundreds . We still get some literature from two of the offshoots! Here is a good one--I think you'll like. If you tithe to them you get the special CO WORKER letter! If you don't tithe you don't get it. ( Wow why didn't we see this before ! ) What a price to pay! We recently found out about the tithing system -How wrong it is! We intend to cancel all literature from these churches!

 In reading your articles of some of the of the problems people had with the church were so down grading ....... ---Its such a shame. The reason I think we didn't have to many problems was because we just went a kept a low profile. We did not question anything Or bother anyone. But we did also see some discrepancies. When going there I just felt that a lot of people --weren't really very loving.

 I know a lot of people criticize your page, I know I was bit skeptical at first but after I read some things I can understand why now! Please understand! We ordered the book The Tangled Web, and intend to get some of the ambassador reports. I have been going through a lot of the literature on your page. Any thing that you could send us a link to help us ---I would appreciate that, to prove all of this! I really think that a lot of these people involved were probably paid off big time!

 The only reason I wished to remain anonymous is because I was a bit scared. Not from your page --But from repercussions I would get from anyone that knew we were in the church & they weren't, if they happened to get on your page. They'd say I told you so. :) But we have been out for quite a while !!! :)))) Am very glad of that!


"Ever think about starting a web page about children who died because their Worldwide Church of God parents wouldn't let them have the necessary medical attention? Name withheld."

In response:

In about ?? 1985 or so our family went to the Ozarks for the feast. The minister asked us daily to pray for his daughter who was ill with the "flu" and being kept in the motel room missing the feast.

On the 2nd last day my kid jumped off the motel railing from 2nd floor and hurt his foot, so we went home.

After the feast, I got a call from a friend that we had met with at the Ozarks, and she asked me if I remembered the minister and the kid. Of course I remembered! She went on to tell me that on the last day, (after I was gone) the minister announced that his daughter had died from a ruptured appendix.

A horrible way to die, in agony. I can't reconcile this with "Christianity" no matter how hard I try.

I have over the years heard horror stories of children with ear infections that went into mastoid infection, hearing losses etc. and I personally saw a child lose his hearing because his parents would not take him to a doctor.

I was fortunate enough to have a bullheaded German mind that would not sacrifice My children to the god "moleck" ie.: WWCg, and took my own kids to the Doctors. One minister actually told me to take my kids, BEFORE the "healing" (read death) doctrine was changed. He also told me to get my kids the shots and not worry about the church. Of course, this man later left the ministry. (wonder why? he had a mind)

I think if we can glean one child to start that page, we should.

If people would come forward to tell the horrific truth.... I believe I recall of a child dying ...being written in the Ambassador Report years ago....but then I read the reports a long time ago. (and a cover-up) Anyone know?

Coming out of a cult and the WWCg cult is like coming out of a war. We need a memorial for those that didn't survive (physically). Many did not survive mentally either however. They went on like the Energizer Bunny from cult to cult...deceived and being deceived. Others had mental breakdowns, never recovered and live as disabled. Just my 2 cents on the issue. Let's think about a memorial to the children. Perhaps we should start with the abused....and maybe we will find out as time goes on about the dead!


 Hi Ed,

Just read the new article by Alex, "Remove the Biblical Pacifier" and LOVE IT!!! The ancient scholars knew a whole lot more than we've been lead to believe---HWA specifically forbade us to read Plato and Aristotle.

I am officially on the internet now. I still don't know much about anything, but will learn. DO NOT PUT MY EMAIL ADDRESS ON YOUR WEBSITE OR I WILL BE DEAD MEAT considering my "Adventures of HWA" articles.

Thanks. Patti


I am a former member of the WWcultG(from birth1969 to about 1986), and I commend you for the excellent work set forth on your website/s. I am still good friends with people who are members of the cult, and the united cult. I have access to information about these organizations (if you give me specific topics, I could probably get you details. (Financial shit may take a while.) A former and current victim is one of my best friends who I work with. He has posted on your site already.

My comment is this:

A lot of contributors are of questionable loyalty to the cult. It would be great to be able to distinguish those who have broken free from the Almighty drain, and those who have other reasons for posting/contributing. This is not to say that current members have nothing to contribute, because, as you know, this information makes for informative and entertaining reading. I feel that once identified, the current remaining members/ believers input could be taken at the level that it is, rather than the level at which it is given. This is the opinion of just a few fans of the site, and thanks for considering the point of view, and responding if possible. (Much appreciated) Also, I have a few Feast site party/ arrest stories, as I'm sure everyone else does. What is the proper medium to post/discuss? It was what it was, but I think I'm ready to have some fun with this.

Your ever-present (sinner?), Mark



I don't know of anybody posting articles to my site that is still a member of any of the many branches of Armstrongism. I do get email from those still caught up in the cult or still hooked on religion, but for the most part they do not identify what church they are affiliated with. And they are mainly concerned with blasting me for not being more Christ like.

Don't know what info you may have that could be of interest to others. I mainly leave it up to those that have something to contribute to choose their own subjects. Of course, those that want to try to push their religion on the readers of the PT need not bother trying. I don't want any fiction. Personal experiences are the best. Mainly, I don't want to do the work of putting together the articles.

Please do send along whatever you think would be beneficial or entertaining.

Best, Ed  


 Hi Ed

You've done a marvelous thing with your site. I just spent an hour reading and surfing. Thank you very much.

I was wondering if you knew anything about Lin Stuhlman and her efforts. I have been unable to contact her and her site is inactive.


Jim Baldwin

 First: I find your site (which is very new to me) to be very interesting. I've just gotten into the PC world and I was looking for something that would give us information that has been kept from us.

Thank you. This is a real piece of work.

Next: I want the book "Herbert W. Armstrong's Tangled Web." When I click on to purchase I'm, just being taken back to an earlier page. Can you help me? I really would like to get this.

Incidentally, the phone company tells me they have no listing on 'John Hadden Publishers' in Tulsa. I've tried.

 Thank you for your attention to this inquiry.




The address for getting David Robinson's "HWA's Tangled Web" is:

John Hadden Publishers
P.O. Box 35982
Tulsa, OK 74135

Send $20.
It can't be purchased on line.

This is the PO Box address that Mrs. Robinson uses. She will mail you the book.

There are a limited amount of copies left and I would bet that there will not be any reprints of it.
One of the best investments an xcg member could make.


 Why do you assume so much. Did I ever proclaim to be Christian. Do you even believe in God anymore, or are you just totally lostspiritually? Not that there is anything wrong with that. Don't you ever feel guilty about the harsh attacks you make against your former organization, and did anything I say in the email strike an emotion about the lives that have been touched by this organization? Or am I just completely blinded and there was nothing positive about it. Again, I am not Christian. You say religion is a drug, but so is contention and hate; however, those two are even more dangerous drugs. Do you think compassion is a drug? Or does the word make you sick to your stomach? Forgive me if I am rude, but I just wonder what could inspire such hate. At this point the only religion I have is the belief in compassion. You say you can lead me to the truth, but in all do respect, I fear where you could lead me. At least now I have love for all people no matter what they have done to me, because if there is anything I have adopted from my father's belief it is that people are just people, not one of us is better than the other. It is this world that makes people bad, and sometimes people are so afflicted by life they can't help how they are, others are just born bad and can't help that either. That's my belief, not that it is right or wrong, it's just mine. Anyway if I have offended you I am sorry. I am more interested in what has inspired your hate than being led to the truth by you. But I guess I can get my answers on your website.

Regards, Jerry


You wrote:

But I guess I can get my answers on your website. 


Good. Now, just go away.



Hi there,

I've been an illiterate member of "Gods" church for 15 years.

Although I'm not convinced with the alternatives I still have a passive interest. 

I must say that your page is excellent it sums up years of abuse that some of the dunderheads in the church have convinced themselves they must do to be at one with "the almighty"

My wife is, as ever, a dedicated member of the church of god, under Mr. Hulme.

I on the other hand don't give a crap. Saying that, our relationship gets very interesting around, especially, the holy days. You remember those, don't you?

What gets me is that you should even bother to set up a web page dedicated to those unhappy memories, please reply and tax my brain.

Andy U.K



Thanks for your message. Interesting to be able to correspond with those in other countries. But, God's Cult, was worldwide. Too bad herb couldn't just stick with screwing his fellow Americans up, he had to try to screw the whole world.

I can just imagine how interesting it would be around my house if I had a wife that wanted to keep the "holy days." I'm sure there would be a divorce if she wanted to give any money. Thankfully, my wife and I are on the same page and are much happier together than we ever were in the cult.

Why did I even bother to set up The PT? Good question. One thing just led to another. Never had a plan. I thought that, if people had the same facts that I did, they would come to the same conclusions. I was wrong.

People definitely do not think the same. President Clinton gets a free pass. O. J. Simpson commits double murder and gets away with it. Some think that the little Cuban boy, Elian Gonzales, should go back to Cuba, some don't. Republicans can't stand Democrats and visa versa. Liberals vs. Conservatives. Protestants vs. Catholics vs. Protestants vs. Muslims vs. ad infinitum. This is a very screwy world. Everyone runs information through their own personal filter.

I was naive. I expected that the leadership of the xcg's to at least try to act like Christ. I imagined that the leaders of the church would have more ethics than little ol' ex-member me, but they do not. I imagined that they would care more about people than I do, but they don't. I thought that the leadership would actually have a conscience but they don't. I thought that they might believe that there is a god watching them, but they don't.

I continue The PT to provide information for those that want it. People can filter it however they want. It would be nice if those that have a problem with anything on the website, would prove it wrong or just don't come back. I don't visit the pro-herb, pro-Worldwide Church of God, pro-xcg sites. I recommend that same method regarding The PT to those that don't like what is posted on The PT.

Another person has offered to take over the maintenance of the PT, and, in light of a recent death threat that has been reported to the FBI, I may take that offer soon. Regardless of what happens to me, The Painful Truth will be available for all that want it for many, many years. As long as there is a Worldwide Church of God or any of its daughter churches around, this website will be available to those that want to find out the dirty, rotten foundation on which their church is built. And anyone that continues to be a minister or member of that church, knowing of its evil past, and still supporting it, will bear the responsibility as enablers and accomplices after the fact, even if they were not members or ministers during the abusive years.

Regards, Ed


Keep up the good work.

It is unfortunate that you receive hate email to your site. They have no understanding of what has occurred in the lives of the people that send their articles of what they experienced in Herbie's cults and its spin offs.

But why do they just keep coming back to the web site? If it offended me I would just stop, logic right?? Maybe they are sensing some truth, but because of friendships, family a wife they can not admit that they are wrong, it would be just to embarrassing. I brought my wife to the church and my son it was hard after all those years to say hey I was wrong and we can not go there any more. They just want our money and to control our lives. But you must, if you are in this situation, your life should not be lived in misery. Remember the truth will set you FREE. No one should have to live their life denying the truth if you are seeing it right in front of you.

Your site has changed me life. I had such guilt from doing things that the "Church" said I should not do. This was still affecting me after been out for some 9 years.. That is all water under the bridge now thanks to your site Ed.

You and I both know the JOY once you have been set free from the mind control and enslavement that occurs in Herbie's cults.

We need to take the time, to check out all things before we jump on board. every time in my life that I have been wrong if I would have put aside my arrogance and pride and did some research in to any issue before acting I would have saved myself a ton of grief.

I hope these individuals will take the time with an honest open mind, to investigate what they doing with their lives. Do not be blindly lead by anyone, they may be wrong. Prove all things for your self, it is your life at risk.




Thanks for your message.

Seems as though the site has a more healing benefit for those who were kicked out or left of their own accord than it has for the present members, to set them free from religious bondage.

But, some people have peace of mind by knowing that they were right about the church. They now know that the men who condemned them to the Lake Of Fire were just dirty, rotten, money grubbing criminals, who belong in that lake more than the poor, abused former members. These people don't have to live in spiritual condemnation and fear of a mean, vindictive god that you wouldn't want as your next-door neighbor let alone as a God.

Too bad the present Worldwide Church of God couldn't do that for these people. They are the ministers, not me. But, I guess there is no money in really helping people.

Regards, Ed



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